Expectations
- Thread starter Ocko
- Start date
Changing that then how much do you think Panthers are worth?
To elaborate. From my sums earlier. Nottingham average around the 5500 fan mark for a season. Taking that at £10 a ticket you get 55k a game. Now supposedly they pay in the region of 30k rent for the NIC per night leaving 25k. This equates to near enough the same then income you are looking at Devils being able to generate in the new arena per game.
So how much are panther worth and more importantly how much does Neil Black make as that will give a reasonable guess of where the Devils are headed financially in the future.
To elaborate. From my sums earlier. Nottingham average around the 5500 fan mark for a season. Taking that at £10 a ticket you get 55k a game. Now supposedly they pay in the region of 30k rent for the NIC per night leaving 25k. This equates to near enough the same then income you are looking at Devils being able to generate in the new arena per game.
So how much are panther worth and more importantly how much does Neil Black make as that will give a reasonable guess of where the Devils are headed financially in the future.
But Neil Black has (as far as I'm aware):
- the EIHL 'rights' for Nottingham
- an ice time agreement with the NIC
- names and trademarks for the Nottingham Panthers
Ragan also has the EIHL rights for Cardiff and the names and trademarks for the Devils. Although there does seem to be some suggestion the transfer of those isn't 100% completed.
He also has the the ice time for the BBT, but not Ice Arena Wales. So what the Cardiff Devils are worth now is irrelevant to what they are worth next season without that ice time agreement. Nothing.
- the EIHL 'rights' for Nottingham
- an ice time agreement with the NIC
- names and trademarks for the Nottingham Panthers
Ragan also has the EIHL rights for Cardiff and the names and trademarks for the Devils. Although there does seem to be some suggestion the transfer of those isn't 100% completed.
He also has the the ice time for the BBT, but not Ice Arena Wales. So what the Cardiff Devils are worth now is irrelevant to what they are worth next season without that ice time agreement. Nothing.
He's using the ice in the BBT, but that is not the same as having an ice time contract.
He has followed the Bob Phillips model of dealing with the Council so far (threatening in the media to sue), and the lack of trumpeting about an ice-time agreement of any kind with Ice Arena Wales thus far would lead you to believe he has also worked his relationship magic on his potential future landlords.
The value of what he 'owns' would appear to be far below what he would like to have us believe.
He has followed the Bob Phillips model of dealing with the Council so far (threatening in the media to sue), and the lack of trumpeting about an ice-time agreement of any kind with Ice Arena Wales thus far would lead you to believe he has also worked his relationship magic on his potential future landlords.
The value of what he 'owns' would appear to be far below what he would like to have us believe.
Interesting to note that a Hull consortium is going to try and seize the franchise at an eliteleague meeting on Tuesday. That will have far reaching consequences for Devils immediate future also. If successful then the possibility of the same happening in Cardiff would increase but this strikes me as a legal mine field. My bet. They uphold Bobby Mcewan franchise in which case Ragan will get his ice time or we'll be watching Greenbank run EPL hockey.
That was discussed previously. The guy bought control of the operating company but apparently it all went pop before he acquired the franchise and rights. The odyssey moved in. Acquired them and simply ceased a lease contract to the ice with the other guy. The staff resigned and moved. The bloke had nothing.
Whilst Ragan holds the EIHL franchise/rights he has his asset. Honestly that clause for ice time needs elaborating on. If it just refers to a zero pay rate then he can be kept out but if it includes number of sessions a week etc it starts looking like an ice time agreement of sorts. He is then entitled as the holder of the rights to the team playing in the top flight of UK hockey as ratified by IHUK and the IIHF the terms of that clause. As stated against similar venues that figure commercially could be worth on the region of a 10k to 15k saving per week.
The Devil will be in the detail of that clause.
Whilst Ragan holds the EIHL franchise/rights he has his asset. Honestly that clause for ice time needs elaborating on. If it just refers to a zero pay rate then he can be kept out but if it includes number of sessions a week etc it starts looking like an ice time agreement of sorts. He is then entitled as the holder of the rights to the team playing in the top flight of UK hockey as ratified by IHUK and the IIHF the terms of that clause. As stated against similar venues that figure commercially could be worth on the region of a 10k to 15k saving per week.
The Devil will be in the detail of that clause.
I can't honestly believe we are even here.
If people want to have cloak and dagger meetings to gain control of the club, then they obviously are not the rightful owners of the thing they are trying to gain.
At the moment the IP rights, Franchise rights belong to Paul Ragan. If you want them make them an offer.
If Shannon wants the IP rights back, then he can make a case to have them back and if he get's that then it's his club. Shannon however did make a big play in the media a year or so ago though stating he was happy they were Ragans so it could prove difficult if he has had a change of heart.
IAW have stated previously that the ice time will belong to the top flight team in Cardiff Currently the Cardiff Devils. So unless the EIHL input a different top flight team then it's currently Paul Ragan's Cardiff Devils.
So if someone wants to take over from Paul then great. But all this cloak and dagger stuff makes EVERYONES position weaker.
There are no winners in a war. Obviously people have short memories of that in Cardiff.
If people want to have cloak and dagger meetings to gain control of the club, then they obviously are not the rightful owners of the thing they are trying to gain.
At the moment the IP rights, Franchise rights belong to Paul Ragan. If you want them make them an offer.
If Shannon wants the IP rights back, then he can make a case to have them back and if he get's that then it's his club. Shannon however did make a big play in the media a year or so ago though stating he was happy they were Ragans so it could prove difficult if he has had a change of heart.
IAW have stated previously that the ice time will belong to the top flight team in Cardiff Currently the Cardiff Devils. So unless the EIHL input a different top flight team then it's currently Paul Ragan's Cardiff Devils.
So if someone wants to take over from Paul then great. But all this cloak and dagger stuff makes EVERYONES position weaker.
There are no winners in a war. Obviously people have short memories of that in Cardiff.
It is a bigger issue than just free ice time. What other entitlements does Ragan potentially have in IAW. Does he gave the right to sell hospitality boxes? Does he have the rights to perimeter advertising and on ice logos? If not and he doesn't negotiate a suitable agreement with Greenbank then this may have a catastrophic impact on the team's commercial viability.
Well seeing as IAW are advertising Corporate Sponsorship Opportunities on their own website, I would guess not.
For those who haven't seen it:
http://www.icearenawales.co.uk
For those who haven't seen it:
http://www.icearenawales.co.uk
Companies House has issued abbreviated accounts for Ragan up to April 2014.
I did post a new topic showing the figures but it seems to have disappeared from this site with no explanation from the site admin as to why public domain information regarding the business was removed.
Anyway it shows Ragan as loaning the company over £250,000 and doubles the debt from the previous yr with the 2013 debt adding to this rather than this loan paying off the previous yrs and reducing the debt, although it does state no intention of claiming monies back until the company is able to pay it.
Its all freely available at Companies House website amongst others.
I did post a new topic showing the figures but it seems to have disappeared from this site with no explanation from the site admin as to why public domain information regarding the business was removed.
Anyway it shows Ragan as loaning the company over £250,000 and doubles the debt from the previous yr with the 2013 debt adding to this rather than this loan paying off the previous yrs and reducing the debt, although it does state no intention of claiming monies back until the company is able to pay it.
Its all freely available at Companies House website amongst others.
Quote from the accounts
"The Company has net current liabilities of £388,463 (2013 : £194,560). However, included within this amount is a directors loan of £268,166 (2013 : £78,619) which the director does not intend to call on until the company has sufficent reserves. The director has looked forward for a period of 12 months and is committed to meeting the Companies liabilities as they fall due. Hence the accounts have been prepared on a going concern basis".
"The Company has net current liabilities of £388,463 (2013 : £194,560). However, included within this amount is a directors loan of £268,166 (2013 : £78,619) which the director does not intend to call on until the company has sufficent reserves. The director has looked forward for a period of 12 months and is committed to meeting the Companies liabilities as they fall due. Hence the accounts have been prepared on a going concern basis".
Yeah sorry about that, one of the other mods removed the topic but i'm not entirely sure why.
I think maybe it was supposed to be merged with an existing thread rather than deleted. Feel free to post it again in this thread though if you want, although from memory wasn't it just a jumble of text? The forum software doesn't seem to cope well with anything that's formatted into tables :S
I think maybe it was supposed to be merged with an existing thread rather than deleted. Feel free to post it again in this thread though if you want, although from memory wasn't it just a jumble of text? The forum software doesn't seem to cope well with anything that's formatted into tables :S