Expectations
- Thread starter Ocko
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KaneDevils said:
Isn't he renowned for getting things wrong? Like the other day, listing Adam Harding as a net minder?! 
WD
WD
Paul Sullivan said:
Mooney, 1700 is easily more than enough to MAKE money running the Devils in the BBT if you have even modest sponsorship. The focus has been pulled away from the issues regarding budgets and expectations:
Shouldn't be what our finishing position expectation is.
Should be - where does the money go and why is it not on the ice?
The simple fact is that based on our Walk up and ST prices, zero ice-cost and relatively (in EIHL terms) small team budget, when considering all other revenue streams (many of them cash), there is a major shortfall.
Where does it go? Car Park (historically)? SOHB? 50/50? Cash ticket sales? Bear in mind the DCF also pumps money into the Devils whilst washing its own face and there is a substantial pile of unaccounted for cash that doesn't add up to the current situation.
Depending of course on whether you believe the coaching half of the Club who says making the playoffs next year will be a massive achievement (I do) or the Management half that says we are in the best shape for years.
As for 'you can't sell it' - we've had several sellouts in the BBT era and average attendances that would sustain if not a title-challenging team, certainly one who will battle and entertain. I have never heard, or heard of, a newbie who left a match, or even following a group on deal that put them in Block 15, saying 'that was a crap facility and I hated it'. In fact there have been many emails and thanks to the Club over the years for a great night out. I am sure some have been put off. But I think it affects the likes of you or I far more than a casual or a newbie.
That's not to say the BBT doesn't suck but I do not accept that it cannot be sold.
What I do accept is that it HAS not been 'sold' to the Public. What's happened is the already beleaguered regular fans are getting milked for every penny without seeing their hard-earned appear on the team sheet. And now more and more are asking why it has generated a deafening silence other than to throw a new christian to the Lions in the form of a guy they know we respect.
Edit:
James: that's the polar opposite to what I and others have heard tell. Much like the Telford offer that several were keen to belittle and deride. Also, it's impossible for a player to not be part of Whis's budget
Shouldn't be what our finishing position expectation is.
Should be - where does the money go and why is it not on the ice?
The simple fact is that based on our Walk up and ST prices, zero ice-cost and relatively (in EIHL terms) small team budget, when considering all other revenue streams (many of them cash), there is a major shortfall.
Where does it go? Car Park (historically)? SOHB? 50/50? Cash ticket sales? Bear in mind the DCF also pumps money into the Devils whilst washing its own face and there is a substantial pile of unaccounted for cash that doesn't add up to the current situation.
Depending of course on whether you believe the coaching half of the Club who says making the playoffs next year will be a massive achievement (I do) or the Management half that says we are in the best shape for years.
As for 'you can't sell it' - we've had several sellouts in the BBT era and average attendances that would sustain if not a title-challenging team, certainly one who will battle and entertain. I have never heard, or heard of, a newbie who left a match, or even following a group on deal that put them in Block 15, saying 'that was a crap facility and I hated it'. In fact there have been many emails and thanks to the Club over the years for a great night out. I am sure some have been put off. But I think it affects the likes of you or I far more than a casual or a newbie.
That's not to say the BBT doesn't suck but I do not accept that it cannot be sold.
What I do accept is that it HAS not been 'sold' to the Public. What's happened is the already beleaguered regular fans are getting milked for every penny without seeing their hard-earned appear on the team sheet. And now more and more are asking why it has generated a deafening silence other than to throw a new christian to the Lions in the form of a guy they know we respect.
Edit:
James: that's the polar opposite to what I and others have heard tell. Much like the Telford offer that several were keen to belittle and deride. Also, it's impossible for a player to not be part of Whis's budget
Wannabe2 said:
KaneDevils said:
Isn't he renowned for getting things wrong? Like the other day, listing Adam Harding as a net minder?! WD
WD
You seem to have some kind of affection for him, fair enough, but he's nearly always making mistakes/printing poop.
Ill remind you next time you have a pop at a player, that unless you've been a pro for at least ten years you can't say diddly squat
WD
Ok how about 'whistle has been given a figure to work with which doesn't include kurkas salary'. Clearly Kurka is being paid and out of the budget but what I was suggesting is the numbers bandied around (6k, 6.5k, 7k) don't necessarily include that one player. Either way we really shouldn't know this sort of thing and it being published in the press isn't helpful IMO
Thread starter
#49
Why isn't it helpful that it is published James? Transparency isn't a bad thing, almost every other sport in the country is very open about these sorts of things.
If the club are open and Whis tells The Echo what the budget is off the record but allow it to be published (I'm not for one second saying that is what actually happened) it prevents players holding us to ransom thinking we have money we haven't got.
Although it's money we should have - completely agree with PS on this, where has the money gone?
If the club are open and Whis tells The Echo what the budget is off the record but allow it to be published (I'm not for one second saying that is what actually happened) it prevents players holding us to ransom thinking we have money we haven't got.
Although it's money we should have - completely agree with PS on this, where has the money gone?
I am merely provoking a debate based on fairly reasonable (and easily reached) conclusions / extrapolations. Plenty of money is made in UK Hockey. Whether in some cases it is made by the Clubs or the owners of the Clubs is also a big variable.
In the case of Cardiff the figures are simple to calculate, and it has been tried before. I've seen some wild guesses about equipment, for example - as high as £60k. Reality is the spend on kit is more like £30. Hardly all the players use top end sticks, and they break nowhere near as many as has been speculated. That's just one area where a lot of money is presumed to be 'spent' but is not.
Whether this is a long run of successive mistakes or something far more sinister will likely become known in the future.
And whether or not some choose to actively ignore this debate, the fact is, even for the most casual 'I just want to watch hockey' fan (who's prerogative I fully acknowledge), this speaks directly to the level of hockey that they are paying handsomely for, and the finishing position of the team they can expect for their top-price tickets.
In the case of Cardiff the figures are simple to calculate, and it has been tried before. I've seen some wild guesses about equipment, for example - as high as £60k. Reality is the spend on kit is more like £30. Hardly all the players use top end sticks, and they break nowhere near as many as has been speculated. That's just one area where a lot of money is presumed to be 'spent' but is not.
Whether this is a long run of successive mistakes or something far more sinister will likely become known in the future.
And whether or not some choose to actively ignore this debate, the fact is, even for the most casual 'I just want to watch hockey' fan (who's prerogative I fully acknowledge), this speaks directly to the level of hockey that they are paying handsomely for, and the finishing position of the team they can expect for their top-price tickets.
Thread starter
#51
Your last point is an interesting one. For all the people who have said all they care about is the hockey not politics, just want to watch the game etc (which I fully understand also) I wonder if those same people are happy to watch a budget team at a premium price on top of last year's shambles. Last season many buried their heads in the sand and wrote the season off and rubbished certain posters saying there are some things we shouldn't be privy to, made excuses for Ragan and questioned the legitimacy of certainconcerns. Now it seems the hangover from last year will continue into 14/15 and the politics really are effecting the hockey.
With free ice time and attractive uni deals we shouldn't be behind Coventry in the budget stakes yet it seems we will spend considerably less, even though our tickets are more expensive.
Once again there are more questions than answers.
With free ice time and attractive uni deals we shouldn't be behind Coventry in the budget stakes yet it seems we will spend considerably less, even though our tickets are more expensive.
Once again there are more questions than answers.
Am I deluded then or are you. If money is so easy to be made in hockey in the UK how come its only seemingly the Panthers with any track record of profitability. Steelers have canned it more times than Devils. Giants have lurched into financial woe a couple of times. The Blaze went pop. Hull for the large part are unsustainable. Devils in quarter of a million of debt. Apart from Neil Black no one seems to be making a penny but your convinced this is a going concern.
In which case from your extrapolations what do you think the Devils current financial position should be versus the filed companies house account showing in excess of 250k in the red.
In which case from your extrapolations what do you think the Devils current financial position should be versus the filed companies house account showing in excess of 250k in the red.
You missed my point. I never said all the Clubs (i.e. companies) were showing a profit. I said there are - and have been - Directors / owners that made money. It's not the same thing.
You have constantly and understandably derided the EIHL and its running. However one thing that you've not mentioned is why so many of the owners in these failing Clubs stick around? I doubt we have a great deal of altruistic hockey folk wanting to donate a Club to the fans of their City for no good reason?
Are you telling me a guy with no former hockey history in Cardiff, who is losing hundreds of thousands on a business when his much vaunted, self-promoted special ability is too turn around said same failing businesses, has failed to do so (twice) in 4 years so is just doing this out of the goodness of his heart to give us hockey? You don't come across as that naive.
If there's no money in it, why stay in it? The new arena? He's not guaranteed that. So - why put up with it? It's not as if he is is a long term Devils fan who has made a lot of cash and is happy to keep losing out of sentiment.
Based on all the 'brilliant / successful businessman' hyperbole we have ben fed, there is only one logical conclusion to reach as to why he would keep this millstone, this albatross, in his 'portfolio':
It's not what it seems.
You have constantly and understandably derided the EIHL and its running. However one thing that you've not mentioned is why so many of the owners in these failing Clubs stick around? I doubt we have a great deal of altruistic hockey folk wanting to donate a Club to the fans of their City for no good reason?
Are you telling me a guy with no former hockey history in Cardiff, who is losing hundreds of thousands on a business when his much vaunted, self-promoted special ability is too turn around said same failing businesses, has failed to do so (twice) in 4 years so is just doing this out of the goodness of his heart to give us hockey? You don't come across as that naive.
If there's no money in it, why stay in it? The new arena? He's not guaranteed that. So - why put up with it? It's not as if he is is a long term Devils fan who has made a lot of cash and is happy to keep losing out of sentiment.
Based on all the 'brilliant / successful businessman' hyperbole we have ben fed, there is only one logical conclusion to reach as to why he would keep this millstone, this albatross, in his 'portfolio':
It's not what it seems.
Now I agree totally with you here. I could come up with reasons to buy and retain the Devils but that would be guess work into Paul Ragans thought process. Outwardly with the historical track record it's got you would think anyone buying the Devils was a nut job.
But I will start with a few. It's owned by limited company. His liability to his wallet is zero so if you are not shy about the using the stop it and tidy up technique of business you can plod along in sweet credit filled nirvana until the creditors finally take a run at you. But with assets of 50k and a debt of 250k who going to do that. The creditor is taking the hit then. As long as he is servicing debt then I believe the mantra from him is probably when in the new barn you'll get your money. He's trading on others good will so its like Monopoly money really and no rush to sell.
He has linked many other of his businesses to the Devils via sponsorship and I'd also speculate some of his other businesses are probably on the creditor list. You can play great little tricks with profit and lose balance sheets to drop your tax bill in these circumstances so yes their are advantages to having a loss making entity in your portfolio.
Myself given that we established Ragan has a commodity to sell be it an EIHL membership or franchise along with an attached clause that the team playing in the top flight of uk hockey attracts free ice time (currently his team) means the closer we get to completion of the rink the value of that asset despite it being in so much debt is in fact rising. He is in a position that if he sells he will make money. If he retains and trades in the new barn he will make money. If his cash outlay into the business has in fact been fairly small given all debt is carried by club not him then for what he paid if he sells next summer at a guess I think he could potentially still net £100k. I mean if you were Greenbank what serious valuation would you put on the Devils. If they can absorb costs into the operation and get a successful team on the ice they could potentially be earning a profit of 50-100k year on year on the Devils alone. If you bought the club for between 300-400k you could be into pure cash profit between 4-6 years.
I add this is all guess work from assumptions but to me the longer Paul Ragan holds out the more value his asset acquires. I could be very wrong though.
Which begs the question about this season. I think he is paying the debt or stopping it growing. He is protecting his asset. He is increasing its value further with the possibility he can recoup more at sale. What can the fans do about it. Not a lot other than not attend and not pay. But even there for twelve months he may be prepared to take a hit. He holds a lot of aces as far as I can tell. But my assumptions all revolve around plans surrounding the new rink. If it wasn't on the horizon why anyone would touch the Devils is beyond me but then the carrot of a new rink has been dangled for over fifteen years now and sucked in many an unsuspecting businessman.
Where the money goes I do not know. Will we ever know. Doubt it. Am I prepared to stomach twelve months of lower expectation for a longer term future without Paul Ragan. Yes. The businessmen can have their tricks and games but my ambition is to take my nipper to watch the Devils play in a comfortable rink beating the likes of Nottingham and Sheffield again for trophies and supporting him in playing a game I have had the fortune to do so for twenty years if he so wishes. If men I don't particularly like are making profit out of me so be it as long as I am getting what I want out of it. The business has a long term strategy. So does my support would be the crux of my point.
But I will start with a few. It's owned by limited company. His liability to his wallet is zero so if you are not shy about the using the stop it and tidy up technique of business you can plod along in sweet credit filled nirvana until the creditors finally take a run at you. But with assets of 50k and a debt of 250k who going to do that. The creditor is taking the hit then. As long as he is servicing debt then I believe the mantra from him is probably when in the new barn you'll get your money. He's trading on others good will so its like Monopoly money really and no rush to sell.
He has linked many other of his businesses to the Devils via sponsorship and I'd also speculate some of his other businesses are probably on the creditor list. You can play great little tricks with profit and lose balance sheets to drop your tax bill in these circumstances so yes their are advantages to having a loss making entity in your portfolio.
Myself given that we established Ragan has a commodity to sell be it an EIHL membership or franchise along with an attached clause that the team playing in the top flight of uk hockey attracts free ice time (currently his team) means the closer we get to completion of the rink the value of that asset despite it being in so much debt is in fact rising. He is in a position that if he sells he will make money. If he retains and trades in the new barn he will make money. If his cash outlay into the business has in fact been fairly small given all debt is carried by club not him then for what he paid if he sells next summer at a guess I think he could potentially still net £100k. I mean if you were Greenbank what serious valuation would you put on the Devils. If they can absorb costs into the operation and get a successful team on the ice they could potentially be earning a profit of 50-100k year on year on the Devils alone. If you bought the club for between 300-400k you could be into pure cash profit between 4-6 years.
I add this is all guess work from assumptions but to me the longer Paul Ragan holds out the more value his asset acquires. I could be very wrong though.
Which begs the question about this season. I think he is paying the debt or stopping it growing. He is protecting his asset. He is increasing its value further with the possibility he can recoup more at sale. What can the fans do about it. Not a lot other than not attend and not pay. But even there for twelve months he may be prepared to take a hit. He holds a lot of aces as far as I can tell. But my assumptions all revolve around plans surrounding the new rink. If it wasn't on the horizon why anyone would touch the Devils is beyond me but then the carrot of a new rink has been dangled for over fifteen years now and sucked in many an unsuspecting businessman.
Where the money goes I do not know. Will we ever know. Doubt it. Am I prepared to stomach twelve months of lower expectation for a longer term future without Paul Ragan. Yes. The businessmen can have their tricks and games but my ambition is to take my nipper to watch the Devils play in a comfortable rink beating the likes of Nottingham and Sheffield again for trophies and supporting him in playing a game I have had the fortune to do so for twenty years if he so wishes. If men I don't particularly like are making profit out of me so be it as long as I am getting what I want out of it. The business has a long term strategy. So does my support would be the crux of my point.
I kinda agree and also disagree.
Ragan owns the business, what he makes or looses frankly is none of our business, so too speak, if you believe its not value for money, I do, then simply don't go, I don't.
I'm no fan of Ragan, he is bad for the club, but since he is the owner, how he runs the club frankly is his business and he does not have to answer to anybody, certainly calling for his financials to be publicised on an internet forum for all to discuss is ridiculous.
Is he legal or dodgy, there is no evidence to support that anything illegal, so no he is not doing anything illegal, he is no fool when it comes to finances, running a hockey club as a hockey club, yes he's an idiot.
If someone can provide evidence a person is committing fraud and that someone is knowingly allowing a crime to continue their as guilty as the person committing it, allowing it to continue, withholding info regarding fraud is a serious offence.
Simply paying a fee to Companies House will get you a copy of his business finances.
Ragan owns the business, what he makes or looses frankly is none of our business, so too speak, if you believe its not value for money, I do, then simply don't go, I don't.
I'm no fan of Ragan, he is bad for the club, but since he is the owner, how he runs the club frankly is his business and he does not have to answer to anybody, certainly calling for his financials to be publicised on an internet forum for all to discuss is ridiculous.
Is he legal or dodgy, there is no evidence to support that anything illegal, so no he is not doing anything illegal, he is no fool when it comes to finances, running a hockey club as a hockey club, yes he's an idiot.
If someone can provide evidence a person is committing fraud and that someone is knowingly allowing a crime to continue their as guilty as the person committing it, allowing it to continue, withholding info regarding fraud is a serious offence.
Simply paying a fee to Companies House will get you a copy of his business finances.
To me it's based purely on future earnings. As I wrote before. Taking an average gate of 1400 in the BBT at average £10 a ticket gives you £14k per game. Across 33 games that's 462k. If you could get to a 2500 average in arena that's 825k. Now assuming with better venue and attendances comes better sponsorship, advertising and secondary spend that revenue sky rockets also.
Dividing out the debt across three years gives you losses of approx 83k per year. So to add that to your BBT revenue at a complete rough ball park figure your talking operating costs of 545k.
Now already you are looking a difference of 280k a year from the arena move. With no ice time costs the costs on the business are not going to exponentially rise though there should be far greater reinvestment in them but from my figures which I will assume are grossly inaccurate you still draw the possibility you could be seeing profits of anywhere between100-250k a year. So how do you value the Devils realistically. A 250k debt maker versus a 250k profit maker. It all a punt as this current time.
Dividing out the debt across three years gives you losses of approx 83k per year. So to add that to your BBT revenue at a complete rough ball park figure your talking operating costs of 545k.
Now already you are looking a difference of 280k a year from the arena move. With no ice time costs the costs on the business are not going to exponentially rise though there should be far greater reinvestment in them but from my figures which I will assume are grossly inaccurate you still draw the possibility you could be seeing profits of anywhere between100-250k a year. So how do you value the Devils realistically. A 250k debt maker versus a 250k profit maker. It all a punt as this current time.
