Glynne I agree with a lot of that and whilst so many gaffs have been made by the club this year the Devils decline has been a slow drawn out affair over many years not just isolated to Paul Ragans time as owner. The venue change robbed the Devils of potentially their greatest asset of the city centre rink. The Devils went from a night out to going to watch a hockey game alone. Attendances have never returned in the BBT. Why. It's cack. As it is you are down to a fairly hard core and then if people have unrealistic expectations of gunning for the top in the BBT how on earth can budget for that. Conduct aside which was agreed way below standard last year from a business perspective to blow the finance on persuading 300 potential fair weather fans to stick about for the year. If I were Ragan I'd be cutting them adrift. They'll be back in the new arena.
Expectations
- Thread starter Ocko
- Start date
There is simple logic in what whis has said mind. The idea of setting your targets low means if you over achieve it makes things seem better. I'd rather whis say we will aim for 8th and then actually finish 3rd or even 5th. Far more positive than "yeah we are gona win it all the league, cup and play offs" then fail. I'd kinda prefer the aim low finish high approach.
Time is the only thing that will tell I guess
Time is the only thing that will tell I guess
Its not been one season though has it. You cant tell me last season wasnt a cost cutting season and that backfired big time and how many other seasons have we had we cant afford to replace an import or we're going to start with 10 imports and see how it goes. Or the most consistent throw away comment of we're on a three year plan which never seems to get to years two or three................
whose fault was the 1300 gate........ you may have got the ST holders trapped but you give out crap hockey and no value for money and walk up fans walk away.......
whose fault was the 1300 gate........ you may have got the ST holders trapped but you give out crap hockey and no value for money and walk up fans walk away.......
I don't think last year started as a cost cutting season but it turned into it very quickly because of the poor start on the ice. Anticipated attendances probably fell short which quickly put pressure on financially which turned into pressure on G to turn the whole thing around not just the fortunes of the team. It was just a disaster after that point. This year is starting from a far more sensible base line. The Devils in the BBT are a lose making exercise. On ice it's been good and bad but off ice financially it's been pure treading water waiting for a new rink. It's the only logical reason to invest is for the future. Will people honestly not stomach a season of bland mediocrity for a better future. If you are that precious about your money. Just save it for twelve months. If you honestly support the club give them your custom but hold a gun to Ragan head on financial outlay for this year. I don't see it happening. The more debt the less his asset is worth.
Which would be a good point were it not for the fact that at one point in the BBT the attendance was higher than the last season in the WNIR.
I think you sometimes put a little too much emphasis on the poor facility that is the BBT, which it undoubtedly is. With the right kind of team it is also the greatest home advantage in the EIHL. We have seen this several times in the past few years, reaching CC semi's, finals, and POFW as a result of it.
Blaming the rink for the shortcomings of the Team is Ragan-esque. Poor decisions, poor management and disrespect are not exclusive to a team playing out of the BBT.
I have yet to see anyone put forth an argument that simply having a new building will mean our current owner will become an honourable and stable leader. Bricks and mortar will not fix our problems.
As for expectations of this season? I think Whis is right in thinking playoffs is an achievement. Let's look at it based on what we can take an educated guess at:
Budget estimated at £6k / week
Kurka signed on enormous contract.
Bowns signed (good signing imo). Won't be cheap but not stellar wage.
Quiney gone
Likely to re-sign Richie.
Likely to lose one of Davies / Myers.
Likely to re-sign Piggsie / CJ.
Batch as yet unknown future.
If you have a decent handle on the wage demands of the EIHL you could reasonably suggest that, should all of the above come to pass, that Whis has already committed over half the budget on the guys listed above.
Which puts the Devils in the vicinity of £2800 / £2900 for 10 remaining imports. Ouch.
Now sure this is all guesswork, but even if the budget is £7k it's still not a lot to hire 10 imports (if indeed we will even have ten imports).
And while it seems universal that we all like and respect Whis, let's not forget (for those saying he is able to build his own team) that the biggest of those signings was not made by him. Would he have made it if it were his call? That's an interesting question for me.
Yes the team has costs. Yes sponsorship is down. But 'we've failed so we're going to squeeze you even harder financially' makes a pretty poor mission statement so blaming everyone but themselves looks to be the standard position once again. Perhaps it will be down to the 20 or so unhappy fans. Perhaps the council. Maybe IAW or Greenbank. Who knows the League could be next.
One thing is for sure, if this is the best position we have been in for years I dread to think what the bad times might look like.
I think you sometimes put a little too much emphasis on the poor facility that is the BBT, which it undoubtedly is. With the right kind of team it is also the greatest home advantage in the EIHL. We have seen this several times in the past few years, reaching CC semi's, finals, and POFW as a result of it.
Blaming the rink for the shortcomings of the Team is Ragan-esque. Poor decisions, poor management and disrespect are not exclusive to a team playing out of the BBT.
I have yet to see anyone put forth an argument that simply having a new building will mean our current owner will become an honourable and stable leader. Bricks and mortar will not fix our problems.
As for expectations of this season? I think Whis is right in thinking playoffs is an achievement. Let's look at it based on what we can take an educated guess at:
Budget estimated at £6k / week
Kurka signed on enormous contract.
Bowns signed (good signing imo). Won't be cheap but not stellar wage.
Quiney gone
Likely to re-sign Richie.
Likely to lose one of Davies / Myers.
Likely to re-sign Piggsie / CJ.
Batch as yet unknown future.
If you have a decent handle on the wage demands of the EIHL you could reasonably suggest that, should all of the above come to pass, that Whis has already committed over half the budget on the guys listed above.
Which puts the Devils in the vicinity of £2800 / £2900 for 10 remaining imports. Ouch.
Now sure this is all guesswork, but even if the budget is £7k it's still not a lot to hire 10 imports (if indeed we will even have ten imports).
And while it seems universal that we all like and respect Whis, let's not forget (for those saying he is able to build his own team) that the biggest of those signings was not made by him. Would he have made it if it were his call? That's an interesting question for me.
Yes the team has costs. Yes sponsorship is down. But 'we've failed so we're going to squeeze you even harder financially' makes a pretty poor mission statement so blaming everyone but themselves looks to be the standard position once again. Perhaps it will be down to the 20 or so unhappy fans. Perhaps the council. Maybe IAW or Greenbank. Who knows the League could be next.
One thing is for sure, if this is the best position we have been in for years I dread to think what the bad times might look like.
Been a long term fan and seen how our reputation was built around loyalty and by doing things right, which has been eroded year on year since the original BP days.
So simple question, Terrys articles constantly refer to Kurkas huge wage, Paul has mentioned it above, rumours that he wasn't Whis' signing too. So to me would the best decision be to offer him two weeks notice or are there payment penalties built into the stock EIHL contract that would make this unviable?
This would allow us to potentially sign a strong forward and potentially a cheaper young import? Would also allow Whis to select every guy on the team that he wants and not to inherit a "Hatter hangover".
I realise that this would probably put the fear of dread into most, does me to too be honest and its not a great reputation repairer which we need, but if needs must.....
So simple question, Terrys articles constantly refer to Kurkas huge wage, Paul has mentioned it above, rumours that he wasn't Whis' signing too. So to me would the best decision be to offer him two weeks notice or are there payment penalties built into the stock EIHL contract that would make this unviable?
This would allow us to potentially sign a strong forward and potentially a cheaper young import? Would also allow Whis to select every guy on the team that he wants and not to inherit a "Hatter hangover".
I realise that this would probably put the fear of dread into most, does me to too be honest and its not a great reputation repairer which we need, but if needs must.....
The reason I put so much stock in the BBT factor is it is the biggest factor that affects spectator experience to do with the whole circus that is the Cardiff Devils. There are only a couple of hundred seats with decent sight lines in the whole building the majority of which are occupied by season ticket holders. Walk up fans potential view of what they just paid top dollar for is crap. You can dress it how you want but paying to see half the ice. Shocking and you won't come back in a hurry. That is not the Devils fault. They could ice the best and happiest team in the league but in that barn you can't sell it. They got a world record. The average was still below 1700. You can throw all the money you want onto the ice. That building will strangle your attendance figure.
Ragan has to deal with that as his trading environment. Now I don't defend his businesses conduct but it's born out of desperation.
When you can offer a game every spectator can see from any seat and get a beer in decent time and a decent tasting hot dog you have a product to sell. Your gate will rise. You income rises you have constraints on budgets relaxed and it's a lot easier to keep people happier. If you follow hockey yes you have a better idea of what on ice product your watching but to get new people in you have to sell a full package and the majority if that is nothing to do with on ice. So I put so much of the blame at the BBTs door and faith in the new arena not to give Ragan an get out of jail free card but because I was once that new fan and I remember what I wanted from me evening out. My love of hockey came after.
Ragan has to deal with that as his trading environment. Now I don't defend his businesses conduct but it's born out of desperation.
When you can offer a game every spectator can see from any seat and get a beer in decent time and a decent tasting hot dog you have a product to sell. Your gate will rise. You income rises you have constraints on budgets relaxed and it's a lot easier to keep people happier. If you follow hockey yes you have a better idea of what on ice product your watching but to get new people in you have to sell a full package and the majority if that is nothing to do with on ice. So I put so much of the blame at the BBTs door and faith in the new arena not to give Ragan an get out of jail free card but because I was once that new fan and I remember what I wanted from me evening out. My love of hockey came after.
I like reading Whistle's interviews and I hope he is the only voice coming out of the Devils management.
I don't appreciate listening to a lecture from a person who whilst may have been successful/lucky in a previous unrelated venture now struggles to justify his actions by speaking in a manner he does.
I don't care.
Whistle is no fool, he is currently recruiting, therefore its really common sense to not place unrealistic targets in the public domain, players don't want to arrive at a club only to be binned in a few months because Ragan is an idiot, it looks bad on a CV, players want to add to the team and make it go forward, but in an achievable manner, pressured to perform yes, but again achievable performance. You could put Cosby in the team, pay several million and you still would not win everything if anything.
Its not that easy.
No I wish and hope I never hear or read anymore of Ragan's drivel, but please Devils management keep Whistle interviewed regularly, its nice to listen to a person who actually knows what he is talking and what impact the sound coming out of his mouth means for both club and business.
keep it coming.
ickle
I don't appreciate listening to a lecture from a person who whilst may have been successful/lucky in a previous unrelated venture now struggles to justify his actions by speaking in a manner he does.
I don't care.
Whistle is no fool, he is currently recruiting, therefore its really common sense to not place unrealistic targets in the public domain, players don't want to arrive at a club only to be binned in a few months because Ragan is an idiot, it looks bad on a CV, players want to add to the team and make it go forward, but in an achievable manner, pressured to perform yes, but again achievable performance. You could put Cosby in the team, pay several million and you still would not win everything if anything.
Its not that easy.
No I wish and hope I never hear or read anymore of Ragan's drivel, but please Devils management keep Whistle interviewed regularly, its nice to listen to a person who actually knows what he is talking and what impact the sound coming out of his mouth means for both club and business.
keep it coming.
ickleAdams was released for being provided with a bigger budget and enlisting with it, a team, poorly motivated , lacking in energy and direction.........and making the ice hockey experience for spectators the most boring in twenty years!! And this had followed a miserable previous season with similar performances.
I do agree with your dismay at this sudden acceptance of us, as a bottom half of the league team. I don't ever remember us as saying anything other than but 'we may not eventually win the EIHL...but the Devils will give any team a game and at home we expect to win!'
I do agree with your dismay at this sudden acceptance of us, as a bottom half of the league team. I don't ever remember us as saying anything other than but 'we may not eventually win the EIHL...but the Devils will give any team a game and at home we expect to win!'
As good as Kurka was, it does seem strange to have committed so much of the budget to one player right at the start of next seasons recruitment :/
I wonder if Whistle has/had any say in the re-signing and/or whether he'd be able to get Ragan to possibly negotiate a new contract, or possibly even look at cancelling the current one? Although I guess that carries risks for shafting more players on top of last seasons nonsense...
I wonder if Whistle has/had any say in the re-signing and/or whether he'd be able to get Ragan to possibly negotiate a new contract, or possibly even look at cancelling the current one? Although I guess that carries risks for shafting more players on top of last seasons nonsense...
Mooney, 1700 is easily more than enough to MAKE money running the Devils in the BBT if you have even modest sponsorship. The focus has been pulled away from the issues regarding budgets and expectations:
Shouldn't be what our finishing position expectation is.
Should be - where does the money go and why is it not on the ice?
The simple fact is that based on our Walk up and ST prices, zero ice-cost and relatively (in EIHL terms) small team budget, when considering all other revenue streams (many of them cash), there is a major shortfall.
Where does it go? Car Park (historically)? SOHB? 50/50? Cash ticket sales? Bear in mind the DCF also pumps money into the Devils whilst washing its own face and there is a substantial pile of unaccounted for cash that doesn't add up to the current situation.
Depending of course on whether you believe the coaching half of the Club who says making the playoffs next year will be a massive achievement (I do) or the Management half that says we are in the best shape for years.
As for 'you can't sell it' - we've had several sellouts in the BBT era and average attendances that would sustain if not a title-challenging team, certainly one who will battle and entertain. I have never heard, or heard of, a newbie who left a match, or even following a group on deal that put them in Block 15, saying 'that was a crap facility and I hated it'. In fact there have been many emails and thanks to the Club over the years for a great night out. I am sure some have been put off. But I think it affects the likes of you or I far more than a casual or a newbie.
That's not to say the BBT doesn't suck but I do not accept that it cannot be sold.
What I do accept is that it HAS not been 'sold' to the Public. What's happened is the already beleaguered regular fans are getting milked for every penny without seeing their hard-earned appear on the team sheet. And now more and more are asking why it has generated a deafening silence other than to throw a new christian to the Lions in the form of a guy they know we respect.
Edit:
James: that's the polar opposite to what I and others have heard tell. Much like the Telford offer that several were keen to belittle and deride. Also, it's impossible for a player to not be part of Whis's budget
Shouldn't be what our finishing position expectation is.
Should be - where does the money go and why is it not on the ice?
The simple fact is that based on our Walk up and ST prices, zero ice-cost and relatively (in EIHL terms) small team budget, when considering all other revenue streams (many of them cash), there is a major shortfall.
Where does it go? Car Park (historically)? SOHB? 50/50? Cash ticket sales? Bear in mind the DCF also pumps money into the Devils whilst washing its own face and there is a substantial pile of unaccounted for cash that doesn't add up to the current situation.
Depending of course on whether you believe the coaching half of the Club who says making the playoffs next year will be a massive achievement (I do) or the Management half that says we are in the best shape for years.
As for 'you can't sell it' - we've had several sellouts in the BBT era and average attendances that would sustain if not a title-challenging team, certainly one who will battle and entertain. I have never heard, or heard of, a newbie who left a match, or even following a group on deal that put them in Block 15, saying 'that was a crap facility and I hated it'. In fact there have been many emails and thanks to the Club over the years for a great night out. I am sure some have been put off. But I think it affects the likes of you or I far more than a casual or a newbie.
That's not to say the BBT doesn't suck but I do not accept that it cannot be sold.
What I do accept is that it HAS not been 'sold' to the Public. What's happened is the already beleaguered regular fans are getting milked for every penny without seeing their hard-earned appear on the team sheet. And now more and more are asking why it has generated a deafening silence other than to throw a new christian to the Lions in the form of a guy they know we respect.
Edit:
James: that's the polar opposite to what I and others have heard tell. Much like the Telford offer that several were keen to belittle and deride. Also, it's impossible for a player to not be part of Whis's budget
Regardless of whether Kurka's wages come out of 'Whistle's budget' or not, they will come out of the budget in the end.
Nobody knows for certain what Whistle's budget is, but I doubt Terry Phillips would make it up and print it so he's probably very close. The only way we'll get an idea of who is right is when the final squad is all signed up.
Nobody knows for certain what Whistle's budget is, but I doubt Terry Phillips would make it up and print it so he's probably very close. The only way we'll get an idea of who is right is when the final squad is all signed up.
Thread starter
#37
I think saying Kurka's wage isn't counted in Whis' budget is one of the most ridiculous things I've heard on here. It's all part of his budget however you try and dress it up. This isn't real politics, there isn't a special reserve available! If we didn't have Kurka on pop star's wages we'd have more available for the rest of the squad.
This...
...and this.
It's hard to see there being 2 completely different budgets, 1 for players that were perhaps promised something, and another for Whistle to actually recruit his team with. And if there are 2 budgets, why is that the case and what budget is the money from Kurka coming from?
If the signing of Kurka is going to affect the rest of the team, then to me it just doesn't make sense to keep him.
...and this.
It's hard to see there being 2 completely different budgets, 1 for players that were perhaps promised something, and another for Whistle to actually recruit his team with. And if there are 2 budgets, why is that the case and what budget is the money from Kurka coming from?
If the signing of Kurka is going to affect the rest of the team, then to me it just doesn't make sense to keep him.