My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and girls)

[Mooney#16]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

There is two separate debates there. Running of the club. Well that's Ragan. Current situation that surrounds the club. Their a few names in lights for that.

Just a question. Why is there this belief that the inner workings of the club should be in the public domain.

 

[Paul Sullivan]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

There is a belief that the inner workings of the Club should be in the best interests of the Club, and should be conducted in a professional and respectful manner so as to enhance, not diminish, the reputation of The Cardiff Devils.

The fact that much has been the polar opposite of that behaviour has led to a light being shone on some of the 'inner workings'.

It's not a privileged right of demand here. It's an expectation of professionalism for a premium priced product.

 

[Mooney#16]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

But what has happened this season to escalate it so much. In the past many incidents have occurred to do with club personnel that could have brought great shame on the Devils if placed into the public domain but these were hushed and dampened. Would it be fair for the club to be associated with effectively endorsing drink driving, drug taking etc. No. So I see the reasoning. Why the shift in mindset that whistle blowing is the way forward then. To have the Devils name mentioned in the public arena in any context by anyone other than in the context of hockey has a detrimental effect on that reputation. To believe the only people damaging the Devils is Ragan and Pope is incorrect.

This is not the first time players, sponsors even agents have been upset even outraged with the Cardiff Devils but in the cyclic world of pro sport the players and agents all come back so that wouldn't be my worry. The major issue that has to be addressed and this is where I then agree with the principle and not the action is the sponsors. Through all Devils most successful times the club was wholeheartedly built on sponsor money. To have alienated sponsors is a major business faux pas and one Ragan himself needs to get significantly involved in fixing. Butter them up. Offer incentives, reassurances and enhanced links to the community. Make them wanted. But that is sponsors who wish to invest based on aiding success not dictating on ice policy based on holding a gun to Ragans head.

But if Ragan is to ever achieve that turnaround having fan unrest and public outcry and protest surrounding the brand does just as little to attract sponsors. Hence my opening gambit. Why make it all so public.

 

[Paul Sullivan]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Why make it all so public.

Because all other attempts failed, though even this has no effect on the staggering denial and delusion held by our owner of the current state of the Club.

Though it's clear that may not even work.

When the man believes the Club, right now, is in the best position it has been in years and publicly states that this season's stats are significantly better than recent years, well, there's little left to be done but cry 'nurse'.

Hey if it were only me thinking this way I would concede. Maybe it's easier to swallow if a few around you (not you specifically) in a block don't think it's all that bad. That is of course all of our own prerogatives. But the opinions on the stewardship we currently endure are unanimous within the game and the playing community also.

Is there a danger of highlighting this kind of thing? Of course. Is it in mine and the opinion of others the far less risky option than continuing with what we have? Yes.

We don't have to agree on it. Frankly though I have explained my reasons many times over, but as long as there are too few like yourself willing to actually debate it and too many like KaneDevils wanting to just throw insults or one-line fishing expeditions - THAT will continue the 'unrest' as long as any personal crusade. Especially one that doesn't exist.

 

[KaneDevils]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

too many like KaneDevils wanting to just throw insults or one-line fishing expeditions

Thanks for the mention. I try and debate the sport as best I can. I just get a little bored of the sound of your grinding axe. I'm not alone there. Plus, if you don't like my one liners then don't read them. Isn't that what you say to others?

 

[KaneDevils]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

too many like KaneDevils wanting to just throw insults or one-line fishing expeditions

Thanks for the mention. I try and debate the sport as best I can. I just get a little bored of the sound of your grinding axe. I'm not alone there. Plus, if you don't like my one liners then don't read them. Isn't that what you say to others?

Just to add, why don't you actually answer Mooney's questions and put us all in your picture?

 

[Sheincar]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

But what has happened this season to escalate it so much. In the past many incidents have occurred to do with club personnel that could have brought great shame on the Devils if placed into the public domain but these were hushed and dampened. Would it be fair for the club to be associated with effectively endorsing drink driving, drug taking etc. No. So I see the reasoning. Why the shift in mindset that whistle blowing is the way forward then. To have the Devils name mentioned in the public arena in any context by anyone other than in the context of hockey has a detrimental effect on that reputation. To believe the only people damaging the Devils is Ragan and Pope is incorrect.

This is not the first time players, sponsors even agents have been upset even outraged with the Cardiff Devils but in the cyclic world of pro sport the players and agents all come back so that wouldn't be my worry. The major issue that has to be addressed and this is where I then agree with the principle and not the action is the sponsors. Through all Devils most successful times the club was wholeheartedly built on sponsor money. To have alienated sponsors is a major business faux pas and one Ragan himself needs to get significantly involved in fixing. Butter them up. Offer incentives, reassurances and enhanced links to the community. Make them wanted. But that is sponsors who wish to invest based on aiding success not dictating on ice policy based on holding a gun to Ragans head.

But if Ragan is to ever achieve that turnaround having fan unrest and public outcry and protest surrounding the brand does just as little to attract sponsors. Hence my opening gambit. Why make it all so public.

This year, under Pope & Ragan's watch, long term sponsors have been upset. Sponsors who've seen the club through thick & thin have finally had enough. A lot of that has to do with how some actions have been carried out rather than whether or not they were the right actions and required. Treat people with dignity & respect & you'll get it back many times over. Treat them like they're something you've walked in & watch them walk away. That also applies to match night volunteers like stewards, SOHB & 50/50 sellers without whom there's no game & no funds raised. If this is the most stable we've been financially why have we had to move offices to Newport?

 

[Paul Sullivan]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

too many like KaneDevils wanting to just throw insults or one-line fishing expeditions

Thanks for the mention. I try and debate the sport as best I can. I just get a little bored of the sound of your grinding axe. I'm not alone there. Plus, if you don't like my one liners then don't read them. Isn't that what you say to others?

Yep and I am not alone in being bored of those who snipe at those who hold the opinion, instead of the post.

Another incorrect insult. Another one-liner.

QED

 

[Paul Sullivan]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

too many like KaneDevils wanting to just throw insults or one-line fishing expeditions

Thanks for the mention. I try and debate the sport as best I can. I just get a little bored of the sound of your grinding axe. I'm not alone there. Plus, if you don't like my one liners then don't read them. Isn't that what you say to others?

Just to add, why don't you actually answer Mooney's questions and put us all in your picture?

There was only one question. I answered it. I know you're bored, but at least try and actually read what you are going to critique. With one line. Again. No debate.

QED

 

[Chris]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

I can't be bothered tidying this thread up, i've got better things to do.

KaneDevils, if you don't like what Paul is posting then either don't bother replying, or if you're going to post at least try and make it something worthwhile rather than the stupid one-liners.

If you can't be bothered to try that, then i'm locking the topic and it won't be reopened until Monday when I get back infront a computer.

 

[KaneDevils]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

But what has happened this season to escalate it so much.

Mooney asked this. You didn't answer it, you answered the question "why make it public"? Two questions asked, only one answered.
Chris, do your rules apply to everyone or just I? Please don't single me out for something many posters get away with constantly. But then I am arguing with a former Devil employee.

Whatever, delete or lock what you will.

WD

 

[Sheincar]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

The deplorable treatment of Adams/Conboy/Cook/Myers/Blight. Publicly backed one minute sacked the next. Promised contract extension to end of season, changed to end of month, changed to this is your last game. Arriving at training to find someone else wearing your kit. Being forced to leave against your will. It's been explained many many times but some people can't/won't take it on board. It's not that decisions have been made, IT'S HOW THEY'VE BEEN IMPLEMENTED.

 

[Mooney#16]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Hey if it were only me thinking this way I would concede. Maybe it's easier to swallow if a few around you (not you specifically) in a block don't think it's all that bad. That is of course all of our own prerogatives. But the opinions on the stewardship we currently endure are unanimous within the game and the playing community also.

That's a pretty bold statement Paul and damning on the players professionalism also. If you are the public voice of a unanimous playing community opinion that mirror to be looked in needs increasing in size.

 

[Mooney#16]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

The deplorable treatment of Adams/Conboy/Cook/Myers/Blight. Publicly backed one minute sacked the next. Promised contract extension to end of season, changed to end of month, changed to this is your last game. Arriving at training to find someone else wearing your kit. Being forced to leave against your will. It's been explained many many times but some people can't/won't take it on board. It's not that decisions have been made, IT'S HOW THEY'VE BEEN IMPLEMENTED.

G treatment I agree was poor. The others I feel have been escalated out of friendship to players not on their merits. Everyone of those player moves you can find a justification for and it's pro sports. No pro will like it. If you think the Devils are the only club in the game capable of acting like this it's not the case. Half the reason guys end up hear is the holiday camp out of the North American rat race that sees these things happen. There is an element of fan base over reaction based on proximity to the personalities involved that also comes into play. Not everyone can't grasp it. They just see a different hymm sheet.

 

[jodysstillagirlsname]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

The deplorable treatment of Adams/Conboy/Cook/Myers/Blight. Publicly backed one minute sacked the next. Promised contract extension to end of season, changed to end of month, changed to this is your last game. Arriving at training to find someone else wearing your kit. Being forced to leave against your will. It's been explained many many times but some people can't/won't take it on board. It's not that decisions have been made, IT'S HOW THEY'VE BEEN IMPLEMENTED.

G treatment I agree was poor. The others I feel have been escalated out of friendship to players not on their merits. Everyone of those player moves you can find a justification for and it's pro sports. No pro will like it. If you think the Devils are the only club in the game capable of acting like this it's not the case. Half the reason guys end up hear is the holiday camp out of the North American rat race that sees these things happen. There is an element of fan base over reaction based on proximity to the personalities involved that also comes into play. Not everyone can't grasp it. They just see a different hymm sheet.

Possibly you actually knew or believed more of the things that came out about the treatment of G. There has been criticism of the way the 'militia' have posted and not clearly stated what they knew or had heard with calls for evidence etc. There were no such calls for proof of what Ragan and Pope stated in their Devils TV output, we were all expected to take what they said at face value despite their previous track record.

For my part as one of the perceived 'militia' I have hinted at rather than come out with direct accusations of wrong doing for one reason, I still actually care about the reputation of the club, don't want to destroy it but want it run in a proper manner

 

[Mooney#16]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

I know more about a lot of things than I let on but I objectify it in its source and context. G situation was particularly unsavoury due to its public nature and virtual flogging in the stocks he took. That man in my opinion had served enough time and tolerated enough if the Devils were to run with a bench coach G had earned that chance. He was never rated as a head coach and always a player coach hence I feel no fairness in comparing G, Brent or Whistle. G never got his shot. A shot I think he earned.

However some of the other incidents have not been as poorly handled as eluded to also and used to compound a idea generated at the point of G dismissal. When viewed in isolation they can be mildly rationalised out.

 

[Sliput]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

The deplorable treatment of Adams/Conboy/Cook/Myers/Blight. Publicly backed one minute sacked the next. Promised contract extension to end of season, changed to end of month, changed to this is your last game. Arriving at training to find someone else wearing your kit. Being forced to leave against your will. It's been explained many many times but some people can't/won't take it on board. It's not that decisions have been made, IT'S HOW THEY'VE BEEN IMPLEMENTED.

G and Myers, I completely agree with you. The club acted very badly regarding these two, no ifs or buts they were wrong on every level.

Conboy. For me this is half and half, yes the club were wrong coming out with their 'We are backing him' PR and ended up looking stupid BUT they made the right decision in getting rid of him. He was a liability .

Cook. Bless him , he got in touch with the club, they gave him a choice but sadly he just wasnt good enough/what we needed.

Blight. Now I am not sure about this one, I dont really know what reasons were given but if they were the correct ones then I have no problem with him going. Regardless of whether he had ties here or not.

I hope when Pope comes back he leaves the coaching side to Whis and Ragan realises that if he doesnt want to lose anymore faith with the fans he needs to keep Whis .

 

[Paul Sullivan]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

But what has happened this season to escalate it so much.

Mooney asked this. You didn't answer it, you answered the question "why make it public"? Two questions asked, only one answered.
Chris, do your rules apply to everyone or just I? Please don't single me out for something many posters get away with constantly. But then I am arguing with a former Devil employee.

Whatever, delete or lock what you will.

WD

Honestly - I took that as being a rhetorical lead-in to the main question of 'why in public', hence my response to him or you. Again though - please don;t make this about me or you, it's not.

I mentioned you because of your posting style, something you have continued after requests to debate or withdraw from the conversation. Nothing more, nothing less.

Not sure what being a former employee has to do with your post, but 'whatever' is commonly the refuge of the weak argument, or the poor debater.

Chris - I shouldn't have thought you needed to tidy up really - Stub created this thread as a catch-all to slow down the OT threads elsewhere. As long as rules are stuck to we can play with the other kids, right?

 

[Paul Sullivan]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

The deplorable treatment of Adams/Conboy/Cook/Myers/Blight. Publicly backed one minute sacked the next. Promised contract extension to end of season, changed to end of month, changed to this is your last game. Arriving at training to find someone else wearing your kit. Being forced to leave against your will. It's been explained many many times but some people can't/won't take it on board. It's not that decisions have been made, IT'S HOW THEY'VE BEEN IMPLEMENTED.

G and Myers, I completely agree with you. The club acted very badly regarding these two, no ifs or buts they were wrong on every level.

Conboy. For me this is half and half, yes the club were wrong coming out with their 'We are backing him' PR and ended up looking stupid BUT they made the right decision in getting rid of him. He was a liability .

Cook. Bless him , he got in touch with the club, they gave him a choice but sadly he just wasnt good enough/what we needed.

Blight. Now I am not sure about this one, I dont really know what reasons were given but if they were the correct ones then I have no problem with him going. Regardless of whether he had ties here or not.

I hope when Pope comes back he leaves the coaching side to Whis and Ragan realises that if he doesnt want to lose anymore faith with the fans he needs to keep Whis .

I'm with you on most of that. Something that's worth mentioning here though:

This isn't JUST about conduct with players or a few PRs. Those can, as Mooney says, be rationalised (as either a move they were entitled to make but did it very badly, or a bad move, or a good move that was covered with cringeworthy video and PR.)

This is about the wider reputation, very crucially locally, of our Club and who is running it. There are epic failures of judgement, business acumen and plain old common sense that have been performed. Some publicly ('I'm going to sue the council' article in the Echo for example) to privately with sponsors, Local authority officers and even the developers of our new home.

This is not a little problem that has been magnified because 'you don't like Ragan and you're bitter'. The needle needs to move on that record. This is about the best chance at a stable, successful, financially sound future that this club has had in almost 20 years.

The right people need to have their hands on the wheel when we enter our new home.

These are not the right people - and not just in my opinion, but demonstrably by their actions.

 

[Mooney#16]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

The right people need to have their hands on the wheel when we enter our new home.

Wholeheartedly agree. Thus looking to the future. How are the correct people identified and by whom.