My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and girls)

[KaneDevils]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Not sure what being a former employee has to do with your post, but 'whatever' is commonly the refuge of the weak argument, or the poor debater.

The whatever was clearly aimed at Chris, if he so wishes to delete my posts, edit them or 'whatever'. Now your having a stab at me even after you have told/asked/requested me not to.
I guess that's my issue with your posts. You do come over a little condescending and arrogant, just my opinion. As a result, I turn to Sarcasm. Guess I like to play the agitator role when I feel it's needed.

Anyhows, enough said. I will keep it shut and let the rest of you debate.

 

[Paul Sullivan]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Not sure what being a former employee has to do with your post, but 'whatever' is commonly the refuge of the weak argument, or the poor debater.

The whatever was clearly aimed at Chris, if he so wishes to delete my posts, edit them or 'whatever'. Now your having a stab at me even after you have told/asked/requested me not to.
I guess that's my issue with your posts. You do come over a little condescending and arrogant, just my opinion. As a result, I turn to Sarcasm. Guess I like to play the agitator role when I feel it's needed.

Anyhows, enough said. I will keep it shut and let the rest of you debate.

I guess I sometimes condescend to those being sarcastic with me. Catch 22 for us then.

Much rather you joined the debate instead of left it or sniped at some of us in it though.

 

[Paul Sullivan]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

The right people need to have their hands on the wheel when we enter our new home.

Wholeheartedly agree. Thus looking to the future. How are the correct people identified and by whom.

For me there are three organisations that could and should determine this from a business perspective:

Cardiff Council
After all they have negotiated the development, part of a high profile landscape changing larger development for Cardiff. CCC could have involvement in some real due diligence (for a change) and help ensure we have a fit and proper owner with the financial clout to prevent another liquidation. Heck if Hooters vet you and your finances, an owner benefitting from a huge financial gift from the Council should expect the same.

The Elite League
Yes, seriously. They could and should be ensuring that the business plan and personnel proposed by any owner have the proven hockey experience and knowledge to be an asset to the League, and a strong Cardiff franchise.

Greenbank.
These guys are providing the best facility we will ever have had in Cardiff, and in addition to the Financial and Hockey savvy boxes ticked by the above, the relationship with Greenbank will need to be enormously positive, with mutual benefits to both if that happens. Whilst the Council have the most to lose if we melted down in the new facility, and the EIHL would lose face, I believe the future of The Cardiff Devils - as, make no mistake, potentially the strongest Club in the EIHL (Arena facility, no ice cost) - hinges on the quality of the 'tenancy' relationship with Greenbank.
We've seen how it goes when an owner (BP) falls out with a landlord. Everybody loses.

Not saying this WILL happen, but the only way to minimise (if not eradicate) the influx of cowboys to our Club and sport, it would be great to see.

I know some people were expecting me to say 'by me' but I thought I would go a different way

 

[Sheincar]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

The deplorable treatment of Adams/Conboy/Cook/Myers/Blight. Publicly backed one minute sacked the next. Promised contract extension to end of season, changed to end of month, changed to this is your last game. Arriving at training to find someone else wearing your kit. Being forced to leave against your will. It's been explained many many times but some people can't/won't take it on board. It's not that decisions have been made, IT'S HOW THEY'VE BEEN IMPLEMENTED.

G treatment I agree was poor. The others I feel have been escalated out of friendship to players not on their merits. Everyone of those player moves you can find a justification for and it's pro sports. No pro will like it. If you think the Devils are the only club in the game capable of acting like this it's not the case. Half the reason guys end up hear is the holiday camp out of the North American rat race that sees these things happen. There is an element of fan base over reaction based on proximity to the personalities involved that also comes into play. Not everyone can't grasp it. They just see a different hymm sheet.

Sorry but that's the usual accusation levelled at those who disagree with what's happening. G recognises me but I'd be shocked if he remembered my name & I'm not friends with any of the others.Cook told fans in Scotland that he'd been offered a contract extension to the end of season,only to then be told he'd be leaving at the end of Jan & then being told Edinburgh was his last game. Don't forget Pope praised him as a prospect for the future. I,like others, foolishly thought he meant for us. I have no issue with players or coaches being told their time is up & to move on as long as it's done professionally. This backing one minute & sacking the next does not cover the club in any glory & smacks of amateur hour.

 

[jodysstillagirlsname]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

The deplorable treatment of Adams/Conboy/Cook/Myers/Blight. Publicly backed one minute sacked the next. Promised contract extension to end of season, changed to end of month, changed to this is your last game. Arriving at training to find someone else wearing your kit. Being forced to leave against your will. It's been explained many many times but some people can't/won't take it on board. It's not that decisions have been made, IT'S HOW THEY'VE BEEN IMPLEMENTED.

G treatment I agree was poor. The others I feel have been escalated out of friendship to players not on their merits. Everyone of those player moves you can find a justification for and it's pro sports. No pro will like it. If you think the Devils are the only club in the game capable of acting like this it's not the case. Half the reason guys end up hear is the holiday camp out of the North American rat race that sees these things happen. There is an element of fan base over reaction based on proximity to the personalities involved that also comes into play. Not everyone can't grasp it. They just see a different hymm sheet.

Sorry but that's the usual accusation levelled at those who disagree with what's happening. G recognises me but I'd be shocked if he remembered my name & I'm not friends with any of the others.Cook told fans in Scotland that he'd been offered a contract extension to the end of season,only to then be told he'd be leaving at the end of Jan & then being told Edinburgh was his last game. Don't forget Pope praised him as a prospect for the future. I,like others, foolishly thought he meant for us. I have no issue with players or coaches being told their time is up & to move on as long as it's done professionally. This backing one minute & sacking the next does not cover the club in any glory & smacks of amateur hour.

Amateur season, perhaps that is the way it is going to go. People can't complain about players not being paid wages on time then just the expenses :lol:

 

[Mooney#16]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Sorry but that's the usual accusation levelled at those who disagree with what's happening. G recognises me but I'd be shocked if he remembered my name & I'm not friends with any of the others.Cook told fans in Scotland that he'd been offered a contract extension to the end of season,only to then be told he'd be leaving at the end of Jan & then being told Edinburgh was his last game. Don't forget Pope praised him as a prospect for the future. I,like others, foolishly thought he meant for us. I have no issue with players or coaches being told their time is up & to move on as long as it's done professionally. This backing one minute & sacking the next does not cover the club in any glory & smacks of amateur hour.

Amateur season, perhaps that is the way it is going to go. People can't complain about players not being paid wages on time then just the expenses :lol:

Now that puts meet on the bones. If players have money outstanding to them then that is out of order and should be settled as soon as possible. You do not conduct business that flouts employment contracts so if that is a genuine scenario Ragan as chairman should ensure his staff are paid monies immediately. They have the right to withdraw service for breach if contract if this is the case.

As for on ice. The only counter I have is Cook should have a more professional out look than to voice details of his contract and negotiations to fans. Those are not discussions for public consumption and the players have to also conduct themselves in a less amateur fashion also. Utilising a fan base to leverage further pressure onto the ownership is exploitative no matter what the motivation.

 

[Sheincar]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

The kid was confused as to what he'd done wrong. Plus he's hardly a seasoned pro, he's straight out of college in a foreign country looking for what he was promised Perhaps the club should be more professional & not put out video interviews saying they're doing one thing & then do something different.

Wonder why we're now the (Newport) Cardiff Devils?

 

[Simez1106]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Blah Blah Blah does anybody care, tit for tat FFS give it a rest have you nothing else to do with your lives than whine on here I`m surprised the Mods let this keep going on & on & on What has happen in the past has happened you can`t change it SO GET OVER IT, GROW UP!!!!!!!

 

[jodysstillagirlsname]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Blah Blah Blah does anybody care, tit for tat FFS give it a rest have you nothing else to do with your lives than whine on here I`m surprised the Mods let this keep going on & on & on What has happen in the past has happened you can`t change it SO GET OVER IT, GROW UP!!!!!!!

Yes we care about the reputation of the club and are debating issues, if you don't like it don't read it, simples

 

[jodysstillagirlsname]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Sorry but that's the usual accusation levelled at those who disagree with what's happening. G recognises me but I'd be shocked if he remembered my name & I'm not friends with any of the others.Cook told fans in Scotland that he'd been offered a contract extension to the end of season,only to then be told he'd be leaving at the end of Jan & then being told Edinburgh was his last game. Don't forget Pope praised him as a prospect for the future. I,like others, foolishly thought he meant for us. I have no issue with players or coaches being told their time is up & to move on as long as it's done professionally. This backing one minute & sacking the next does not cover the club in any glory & smacks of amateur hour.

Amateur season, perhaps that is the way it is going to go. People can't complain about players not being paid wages on time then just the expenses :lol:

Now that puts meet on the bones. If players have money outstanding to them then that is out of order and should be settled as soon as possible. You do not conduct business that flouts employment contracts so if that is a genuine scenario Ragan as chairman should ensure his staff are paid monies immediately. They have the right to withdraw service for breach if contract if this is the case.

As for on ice. The only counter I have is Cook should have a more professional out look than to voice details of his contract and negotiations to fans. Those are not discussions for public consumption and the players have to also conduct themselves in a less amateur fashion also. Utilising a fan base to leverage further pressure onto the ownership is exploitative no matter what the motivation.

I know where you are coming from The Brits being a valuable commodity have had some leverage for years, the imports not so

Perhaps he felt he had no choice, he is young, a long way from home, no trade union representation probably no agent and could easily have been taken advantage of, perhaps with GMB being an investor in the sport they could offer support to young players and champion fairness from the clubs in their dealings with the players.

Although I can't see all of the clubs liking this, but if they had good representation it would take away the chinese whispers and rumours

 

[rolf]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

There seems to be a belief that goes along the lines of if the players aren't being paid they should unite and present a case to management who are expected to sit and negotiate. This is what the anti militia seem to trot out.

That is as fine as it is naïve.

What actually happens is a lot more calculated and pernicious. Not ALL players do not get paid. Some get everything they expect and are due. Some don't get the kit they are promised and use gash blunt skates. Some don't get the car promised by contract. Some lose on expenses (moving a season's worth of goods and hockey kit over the atlantic and back) and incidental transfers. Some get skanked on accommodation.

It is all individually targeted and from different accounts. so would we expect the whole team to combine over player x's expenses, or player Y's car or etc etc? Especially if the majority are all ok and in the clear? You would hope so, but do not hold your breath. Why would they? It is the same as contracts. For example Kurka is on a massive contract compared to others on this team. Do they all go collectively to Ragan and say fairs fair can we have some more? No. Same rules apply to these other incidentals too. Now I believe Mac, as captain, has gone into bat for some getting screwed and that makes him the man he is. Not all captains are like that or have the same sized balls, and remember GM/coach/BBC colour man was happy to leave him in charge of the shop for the Olympics........till Whis was installed.

So what does player X or Y do when their contract is being ignored? Do they kick off at the management? Well they could and risk being tagged dressing room poison...or do they go on strike, work to rule and risk being tagged as a crap player for their on-ice performance?

It isn't always as clear and simple as it looks.

I do not understand why there is this hostility going on within our fanbase either; we all support the same team and I believe we want to carry on as such. I do not know why there is this polarity over opinion, why some folk who have a belief are ridiculed and sniped at for standing up and being counted.

The old adage that goes 'all that is needed for evil to thrive is for good folk to stand and do nothing' is a tad melodramatic but kind of encapsulates how I feel about this situation.
I do not believe our management to be evil, but I hope the point is not lost.

 

[jodysstillagirlsname]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

There seems to be a belief that goes along the lines of if the players aren't being paid they should unite and present a case to management who are expected to sit and negotiate. This is what the anti militia seem to trot out.

That is as fine as it is naïve.

What actually happens is a lot more calculated and pernicious. Not ALL players do not get paid. Some get everything they expect and are due. Some don't get the kit they are promised and use gash blunt skates. Some don't get the car promised by contract. Some lose on expenses (moving a season's worth of goods and hockey kit over the atlantic and back) and incidental transfers. Some get skanked on accommodation.

It is all individually targeted and from different accounts. so would we expect the whole team to combine over player x's expenses, or player Y's car or etc etc? Especially if the majority are all ok and in the clear? You would hope so, but do not hold your breath. Why would they? It is the same as contracts. For example Kurka is on a massive contract compared to others on this team. Do they all go collectively to Ragan and say fairs fair can we have some more? No. Same rules apply to these other incidentals too. Now I believe Mac, as captain, has gone into bat for some getting screwed and that makes him the man he is. Not all captains are like that or have the same sized balls, and remember GM/coach/BBC colour man was happy to leave him in charge of the shop for the Olympics........till Whis was installed.

So what does player X or Y do when their contract is being ignored? Do they kick off at the management? Well they could and risk being tagged dressing room poison...or do they go on strike, work to rule and risk being tagged as a crap player for their on-ice performance?

It isn't always as clear and simple as it looks.

I do not understand why there is this hostility going on within our fanbase either; we all support the same team and I believe we want to carry on as such. I do not know why there is this polarity over opinion, why some folk who have a belief are ridiculed and sniped at for standing up and being counted.

The old adage that goes 'all that is needed for evil to thrive is for good folk to stand and do nothing' is a tad melodramatic but kind of encapsulates how I feel about this situation.
I do not believe our management to be evil, but I hope the point is not lost.

Thanks Rolf, this is how they prevent the players withholding their labour. Divide and conquer, hardly the way to promote a team ethic. It is the same tactic used to try and control the fanbase EG Militia- Real Fans, it is not even clever or imaginative in fact its just old hat

 

[Mooney#16]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

There seems to be a belief that goes along the lines of if the players aren't being paid they should unite and present a case to management who are expected to sit and negotiate. This is what the anti militia seem to trot out.

That is as fine as it is naïve.

What actually happens is a lot more calculated and pernicious. Not ALL players do not get paid. Some get everything they expect and are due. Some don't get the kit they are promised and use gash blunt skates. Some don't get the car promised by contract. Some lose on expenses (moving a season's worth of goods and hockey kit over the atlantic and back) and incidental transfers. Some get skanked on accommodation.

It is all individually targeted and from different accounts. so would we expect the whole team to combine over player x's expenses, or player Y's car or etc etc? Especially if the majority are all ok and in the clear? You would hope so, but do not hold your breath. Why would they? It is the same as contracts. For example Kurka is on a massive contract compared to others on this team. Do they all go collectively to Ragan and say fairs fair can we have some more? No. Same rules apply to these other incidentals too. Now I believe Mac, as captain, has gone into bat for some getting screwed and that makes him the man he is. Not all captains are like that or have the same sized balls, and remember GM/coach/BBC colour man was happy to leave him in charge of the shop for the Olympics........till Whis was installed.

So what does player X or Y do when their contract is being ignored? Do they kick off at the management? Well they could and risk being tagged dressing room poison...or do they go on strike, work to rule and risk being tagged as a crap player for their on-ice performance?

It isn't always as clear and simple as it looks.

I do not understand why there is this hostility going on within our fanbase either; we all support the same team and I believe we want to carry on as such. I do not know why there is this polarity over opinion, why some folk who have a belief are ridiculed and sniped at for standing up and being counted.

The old adage that goes 'all that is needed for evil to thrive is for good folk to stand and do nothing' is a tad melodramatic but kind of encapsulates how I feel about this situation.
I do not believe our management to be evil, but I hope the point is not lost.

Absolutely agree with 100% of your post. Please don't think my comments are hostile or aimed at deriding the players. I am merely trying to rationalise a number of points I see to make them open for debate with a potential for solution to be found. Nothing is posted with personal malice at all and I hope its not received in that way.

The players though do need to stand together. On the ice if a player is cheap shotted I expect whether he is a fourth line rookie or first line star on a good team that player would be stood up for. Off the ice a very similar team mentality has to exist. If players are getting screwed they should all be helping each other and standing in unity. It could be flipped just as easily in twelve months time where they require the help so you have to represent all. The NHLPA takes all its players out on strike over the CBA when it is commoinly recognised the players that usually suffer the most on those deals is the third and fourth line guys but the stars support the union and what it does for the players rights.

Divide and conquer falls on its backside if you can't divide. If players have not had contract obligations met and honoured thet the club made then the club deserves all the criticism under the sun. I honestly mean that. My personnal message to Paul Ragan and Brent Pope on that would be pay up. Honour your promises. As everyone says. Act professionally. Where I have struggled with this whole issue is to then see this topic high jacked also as an reason to try to influence on ice policy.

The press releases. The statements. The your great no wait their your off. It doesn't wash with me as its stuff of the real world. I've sen guys with exemplary employment records released under redundancy with some dross retained with no apparenent logic to it but you have to live with that sort of thing. People in positions of reponsibility make their calls and thats their perogative. Like I said alot of the player movement I can see logic to so whilst I am able to rationalise these moves. As suggested in no way do I support any player having his contract obligations not met and in good fashion.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Glad to see that this thread is serving its purpose. It is a place where reasoned debate can take place without disrupting other threads where people want to talk about hockey.
It has been an interesting few months on this forum. In the early months the militia (sorry but the name has stuck now) were very vocal and very few opposed their views. (Probably for fear of being in the minority)
However in recent months the 'anti militia' have found their voice and now it feels like 50/50.
I suspect though that the anti militia rose not because they strongly felt that Ragan was right or that the militia was wrong but because of the way the militia conducted themselves on this forum.
I have made some sarcastic comments when we have had 5 or 6 hockey threads all turning into an anti Brent Pope fest. It frustrates the hell out of me and probably is why (if I have to take a side) I lean towards the anti militia.
Now that the bumper thread is being used properly and the other threads are being less hijacked I have started listening for the first time.
I now understand some of the reasons why the militia are so vocal and even have some sympathy for their cause.
If I was 100% sure that the reasons for the militia were just and right then I would support them and the thing is, their reasons probably are just and right, but when I see obsessive almost pathological behaviour that is doing more harm than good to the club I naturally questions the motives of the leaders (and there are leaders). If a campaign is orchestrated like a political one then it probably is political.
Therefore the question I have asked myself is:-
In the past I have seen nasty battles between business men who want to run the Devils. Is this the same again? When Im hearing rumours (from pro militia people) that PR has been made two offers to buy the Devils then I am even more suspicious.
So my message to the militia is this
If your aims are noble (i.e. about the way the players are treated)then make your voice heard but do not hijack every thread. Sometimes less is more.
To the anti militia I say this:- If this is a big business battle that everyone is innocently caught up in then don't trust what anybody tells you. The other side is just as likely to use dirty tricks and misinformation.
I really hope that my suspicions are wrong.

 

[Mooney#16]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

The right people need to have their hands on the wheel when we enter our new home.

Wholeheartedly agree. Thus looking to the future. How are the correct people identified and by whom.

For me there are three organisations that could and should determine this from a business perspective:

Cardiff Council
After all they have negotiated the development, part of a high profile landscape changing larger development for Cardiff. CCC could have involvement in some real due diligence (for a change) and help ensure we have a fit and proper owner with the financial clout to prevent another liquidation. Heck if Hooters vet you and your finances, an owner benefitting from a huge financial gift from the Council should expect the same.

The Elite League
Yes, seriously. They could and should be ensuring that the business plan and personnel proposed by any owner have the proven hockey experience and knowledge to be an asset to the League, and a strong Cardiff franchise.

Greenbank.
These guys are providing the best facility we will ever have had in Cardiff, and in addition to the Financial and Hockey savvy boxes ticked by the above, the relationship with Greenbank will need to be enormously positive, with mutual benefits to both if that happens. Whilst the Council have the most to lose if we melted down in the new facility, and the EIHL would lose face, I believe the future of The Cardiff Devils - as, make no mistake, potentially the strongest Club in the EIHL (Arena facility, no ice cost) - hinges on the quality of the 'tenancy' relationship with Greenbank.
We've seen how it goes when an owner (BP) falls out with a landlord. Everybody loses.

Not saying this WILL happen, but the only way to minimise (if not eradicate) the influx of cowboys to our Club and sport, it would be great to see.

I know some people were expecting me to say 'by me' but I thought I would go a different way

In trying to be positive towards the future though I see your reasoning for all but the practicalities would be bizarre. Firstly if it were to not be Ragan owning the Devils firstly you have to get him to sell. The only way that will happen is to match a valuation. Right now the valuation would be based on future earnings and not current trading. How as a fan group can you entice a person with enough wealth and suitable know how to the table and pursuade him to part with a substantial amount of cash based on future earnings. This is where the fans if it is their desire to get this change have to change conduct to a very high standard to broker that deal. They have to be brought to the table.

The next hurdle is will Ragan sell to them. He has to believe for whatever reason be it price, finanancial liability lack of support for him and his business that it is a good idea to sell. No one is going to force him so you have to remove that dream. Reality is it will be money that talks.

Now the Eliteleague. I have zero faith in this institution as it is so to say they would decide on the ownership scares the life out of me. Tony Smith, Neil Black, Odyssey Trust etc have influence on a board. A board that could refuse entry of the club under an ownership they didn't like but to have them render any influence over the club would I think be political suicide for the EIHL in its current make up. All they can do is form a code of conduct for ownership and kindly request it be adhered to something they all seem to struggle with themselves.

Greenbank can of course deal with whatever customers they like and of course they would like a good working relationship but they cannot really bare influence on a customer ownership. They have to deal with the customers they are given. Thats business.

Now the only one I can see that potentially has teeth to decide on good ownership for the Devils is the Council but I will go on record now and say that would be completely over my head of knowledge. When there are negotiated deals and stipulations of tenancy that have been required parts of a development tender criteria set out by the council. I think they should then have the right to decide who benefits from them. If this means having a say on the ownership of the Devils so be it.

My other idea for any new ownership would be a fans financial stake holding and representation on a board of directors. Have the fans hold a genuine stake and voice within the club to have a say in its administration and ensure transparency of conduct to the fan base. If the ownership was to come up for sale I would like to see this put in place first for the ownership to be then decided in tandem between the fans stakeholders group and cardiff council.

This of course means getting interested parties to the table able to offer Ragan a realistic financial sum that would enable him a return on his investment and sale.

A more realistic solution may also be to try to get Paul to diversify his ownership into a greater pool of shareholders. Reduce his liability. Spread the exposure and have a board constructed of shareholders capable of holding the business and each other to account.

 

[Sheincar]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

There seems to be a belief that goes along the lines of if the players aren't being paid they should unite and present a case to management who are expected to sit and negotiate. This is what the anti militia seem to trot out.

That is as fine as it is naïve.

What actually happens is a lot more calculated and pernicious. Not ALL players do not get paid. Some get everything they expect and are due. Some don't get the kit they are promised and use gash blunt skates. Some don't get the car promised by contract. Some lose on expenses (moving a season's worth of goods and hockey kit over the atlantic and back) and incidental transfers. Some get skanked on accommodation.

It is all individually targeted and from different accounts. so would we expect the whole team to combine over player x's expenses, or player Y's car or etc etc? Especially if the majority are all ok and in the clear? You would hope so, but do not hold your breath. Why would they? It is the same as contracts. For example Kurka is on a massive contract compared to others on this team. Do they all go collectively to Ragan and say fairs fair can we have some more? No. Same rules apply to these other incidentals too. Now I believe Mac, as captain, has gone into bat for some getting screwed and that makes him the man he is. Not all captains are like that or have the same sized balls, and remember GM/coach/BBC colour man was happy to leave him in charge of the shop for the Olympics........till Whis was installed.

So what does player X or Y do when their contract is being ignored? Do they kick off at the management? Well they could and risk being tagged dressing room poison...or do they go on strike, work to rule and risk being tagged as a crap player for their on-ice performance?

It isn't always as clear and simple as it looks.

I do not understand why there is this hostility going on within our fanbase either; we all support the same team and I believe we want to carry on as such. I do not know why there is this polarity over opinion, why some folk who have a belief are ridiculed and sniped at for standing up and being counted.

The old adage that goes 'all that is needed for evil to thrive is for good folk to stand and do nothing' is a tad melodramatic but kind of encapsulates how I feel about this situation.
I do not believe our management to be evil, but I hope the point is not lost.

Absolutely agree with 100% of your post. Please don't think my comments are hostile or aimed at deriding the players. I am merely trying to rationalise a number of points I see to make them open for debate with a potential for solution to be found. Nothing is posted with personal malice at all and I hope its not received in that way.

The players though do need to stand together. On the ice if a player is cheap shotted I expect whether he is a fourth line rookie or first line star on a good team that player would be stood up for. Off the ice a very similar team mentality has to exist. If players are getting screwed they should all be helping each other and standing in unity. It could be flipped just as easily in twelve months time where they require the help so you have to represent all. The NHLPA takes all its players out on strike over the CBA when it is commoinly recognised the players that usually suffer the most on those deals is the third and fourth line guys but the stars support the union and what it does for the players rights.

Divide and conquer falls on its backside if you can't divide. If players have not had contract obligations met and honoured thet the club made then the club deserves all the criticism under the sun. I honestly mean that. My personnal message to Paul Ragan and Brent Pope on that would be pay up. Honour your promises. As everyone says. Act professionally. Where I have struggled with this whole issue is to then see this topic high jacked also as an reason to try to influence on ice policy.

The press releases. The statements. The your great no wait their your off. It doesn't wash with me as its stuff of the real world. I've sen guys with exemplary employment records released under redundancy with some dross retained with no apparenent logic to it but you have to live with that sort of thing. People in positions of reponsibility make their calls and thats their perogative. Like I said alot of the player movement I can see logic to so whilst I am able to rationalise these moves. As suggested in no way do I support any player having his contract obligations not met and in good fashion.

I guess to some extent, off ice, each player has to protect their own position. An independent body like the old Players Association which Ian Cooper ran for years is what's really needed.

 

[rolf]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

There seems to be a belief that goes along the lines of if the players aren't being paid they should unite and present a case to management who are expected to sit and negotiate. This is what the anti militia seem to trot out.

That is as fine as it is naïve.

What actually happens is a lot more calculated and pernicious. Not ALL players do not get paid. Some get everything they expect and are due. Some don't get the kit they are promised and use gash blunt skates. Some don't get the car promised by contract. Some lose on expenses (moving a season's worth of goods and hockey kit over the atlantic and back) and incidental transfers. Some get skanked on accommodation.

It is all individually targeted and from different accounts. so would we expect the whole team to combine over player x's expenses, or player Y's car or etc etc? Especially if the majority are all ok and in the clear? You would hope so, but do not hold your breath. Why would they? It is the same as contracts. For example Kurka is on a massive contract compared to others on this team. Do they all go collectively to Ragan and say fairs fair can we have some more? No. Same rules apply to these other incidentals too. Now I believe Mac, as captain, has gone into bat for some getting screwed and that makes him the man he is. Not all captains are like that or have the same sized balls, and remember GM/coach/BBC colour man was happy to leave him in charge of the shop for the Olympics........till Whis was installed.

So what does player X or Y do when their contract is being ignored? Do they kick off at the management? Well they could and risk being tagged dressing room poison...or do they go on strike, work to rule and risk being tagged as a crap player for their on-ice performance?

It isn't always as clear and simple as it looks.

I do not understand why there is this hostility going on within our fanbase either; we all support the same team and I believe we want to carry on as such. I do not know why there is this polarity over opinion, why some folk who have a belief are ridiculed and sniped at for standing up and being counted.

The old adage that goes 'all that is needed for evil to thrive is for good folk to stand and do nothing' is a tad melodramatic but kind of encapsulates how I feel about this situation.
I do not believe our management to be evil, but I hope the point is not lost.

Absolutely agree with 100% of your post. Please don't think my comments are hostile or aimed at deriding the players. I am merely trying to rationalise a number of points I see to make them open for debate with a potential for solution to be found. Nothing is posted with personal malice at all and I hope its not received in that way.

The players though do need to stand together. On the ice if a player is cheap shotted I expect whether he is a fourth line rookie or first line star on a good team that player would be stood up for. Off the ice a very similar team mentality has to exist. If players are getting screwed they should all be helping each other and standing in unity. It could be flipped just as easily in twelve months time where they require the help so you have to represent all. The NHLPA takes all its players out on strike over the CBA when it is commoinly recognised the players that usually suffer the most on those deals is the third and fourth line guys but the stars support the union and what it does for the players rights.

Divide and conquer falls on its backside if you can't divide. If players have not had contract obligations met and honoured thet the club made then the club deserves all the criticism under the sun. I honestly mean that. My personnal message to Paul Ragan and Brent Pope on that would be pay up. Honour your promises. As everyone says. Act professionally. Where I have struggled with this whole issue is to then see this topic high jacked also as an reason to try to influence on ice policy.

The press releases. The statements. The your great no wait their your off. It doesn't wash with me as its stuff of the real world. I've sen guys with exemplary employment records released under redundancy with some dross retained with no apparenent logic to it but you have to live with that sort of thing. People in positions of reponsibility make their calls and thats their perogative. Like I said alot of the player movement I can see logic to so whilst I am able to rationalise these moves. As suggested in no way do I support any player having his contract obligations not met and in good fashion.

In an ideal world I would agree with you, however I do not see your blue sky alas. The all for one and one for all ethos is a great idea, however look at our on ice performances. Do you see us sending a message out when Ben gets smeared? Errm nope not really. Do you see us being bullied in our own rink? More often than not. Now that would be a public display of unity and if that is not evident, do you think it would be different in the locker room where nobody is privy?

For the first time since Heinrich Beutel are we running a spare import. Normally at this time of the season we are used to being one or two guys short through no fault of our own (ahem). This is where I apply my dodgy maths to this equation and come up with the potential for two or three guys getting gassed and now after the xfer deadline. Now this is due to my crap maths, but given the prevalent environment would anybody really want to poke their head above the ramparts?

Now if we were in the NHL..................

 

[rolf]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Glad to see that this thread is serving its purpose. It is a place where reasoned debate can take place without disrupting other threads where people want to talk about hockey.
It has been an interesting few months on this forum. In the early months the militia (sorry but the name has stuck now) were very vocal and very few opposed their views. (Probably for fear of being in the minority)
However in recent months the 'anti militia' have found their voice and now it feels like 50/50.
I suspect though that the anti militia rose not because they strongly felt that Ragan was right or that the militia was wrong but because of the way the militia conducted themselves on this forum.
I have made some sarcastic comments when we have had 5 or 6 hockey threads all turning into an anti Brent Pope fest. It frustrates the hell out of me and probably is why (if I have to take a side) I lean towards the anti militia.
Now that the bumper thread is being used properly and the other threads are being less hijacked I have started listening for the first time.
I now understand some of the reasons why the militia are so vocal and even have some sympathy for their cause.
If I was 100% sure that the reasons for the militia were just and right then I would support them and the thing is, their reasons probably are just and right, but when I see obsessive almost pathological behaviour that is doing more harm than good to the club I naturally questions the motives of the leaders (and there are leaders). If a campaign is orchestrated like a political one then it probably is political.
Therefore the question I have asked myself is:-
In the past I have seen nasty battles between business men who want to run the Devils. Is this the same again? When Im hearing rumours (from pro militia people) that PR has been made two offers to buy the Devils then I am even more suspicious.
So my message to the militia is this
If your aims are noble (i.e. about the way the players are treated)then make your voice heard but do not hijack every thread. Sometimes less is more.
To the anti militia I say this:- If this is a big business battle that everyone is innocently caught up in then don't trust what anybody tells you. The other side is just as likely to use dirty tricks and misinformation.
I really hope that my suspicions are wrong.

Now I am probably wrong here but wasn't it ragan who coined the term militia? Wasn't he the one who claimed that approx. 6, then 20 'fans' were in that band? It seems he is the polarising force, the one who is making it them vs us. If you do not agree with me, then I am not your friend, and I WILL take my ball home and where will you be then? It seems to me you have taken this as basic premise, swallowed the bait and react accordingly. Shame that really.

I dunno if I am a militia man or not. I see myself as a true 20 plus year fan who has the hump with the owner. I guess I have answered my own question here........YES it appears that I am then, certainly to ragan and therefore in your eyes too. Do I have the same motive as others in this para military organisation here? I doubt it. But it seems that a clever pr trick (see what I did there?) will have my reservations lumped in with a whole maelstrom of dark sinister motives, which will quite rightly alienate me from the more reasoned fanbase, majority then.

I didn't stand outside in protest though they have my sympathies and support if needed. I didn't add myself to their throng because at the time the axe was hovering on players (it decapitated Cook, Blight and sick Finn) and I didn't want to do anything to make it hit any of my family. That is how highly I regard ragan and pope.

Aside from all the much laboured wranglings this year, ragan has also been the man to give us simon hodgkinson (what a gift to hockey he was...) he was also the man who bankrupted the old devils by buying the steelers and gifting them the league. He is also the man who has overly empowered brent pope to in effect manage this club in whichever ways he sees fit. Despite all of this, he makes public his opinions and derides opponents.

Gven his track record, I am proud to be a militia man, I would be too embarrassed not to be a member.

 

[Paul Sullivan]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

IMy other idea for any new ownership would be a fans financial stake holding and representation on a board of directors. Have the fans hold a genuine stake and voice within the club to have a say in its administration and ensure transparency of conduct to the fan base. If the ownership was to come up for sale I would like to see this put in place first for the ownership to be then decided in tandem between the fans stakeholders group and cardiff council.

This of course means getting interested parties to the table able to offer Ragan a realistic financial sum that would enable him a return on his investment and sale.

A more realistic solution may also be to try to get Paul to diversify his ownership into a greater pool of shareholders. Reduce his liability. Spread the exposure and have a board constructed of shareholders capable of holding the business and each other to account.

The first of these points would I think be the most unrealistic and near impossible of all to achieve, though it's a nice idea. Let's face it right now we can't even agree as a fan base whether our current owner and MD are shocking or ballsy so deciding who on earth would represent 'us' (or even being able to define what constitutes 'us') would be like nailing jelly to the ceiling.

Regarding diversification - I just don't see it. Yes some opinion has to come in here but honestly, from seeing PR, SH and BP work up close, it is my firm and experienced belief that the one thing he will never willingly relinquish is control.

Part of where I see the problem speaks to this, and it is Paul's total denial that there have EVER been any problems, let alone this season.

Only this week a leading EIHL GM told me if he had the number of unhappy fans at the level of discontent of the Devils while he was in charge, he would fully expect the sack, or would have expected it before it ever got to this stage. As an outsider, it beggared his belief that the PR/BP machine could carry on regardless in the face of (what is even at best for them a PR disaster) a very conspicuous and embarrassing situation with a significant number of customers.

There's nothing wrong, you see. Brent is, all previous career evidence to the contrary, viewed by Paul as one of the best coaches in the game. He has said this to many EIHL board members.

One thing I totally agree with Slartibartfast on - approach needs to change. Nobody thought posting on the inferno would ever change the Club's admin but it is a simple fact that, contrary to social media policy and several statements made, the Club read this stuff. For me there was a chance that seeing how people felt might strike a chord. Deaf ears however prevailed. What actually happened is they created an official account instead. Another about face. Bonkers.

Also much of what has been posted recently was in response to a call for reasons and motivations. Which has been done and in many cases ignored, leading me to...

For me Rolf has truly hit a nail on the head, about accepting a premise upon which to base an opinion. Throughout all this debate one thing has been a constant: Those who oppose PR have posted incidents & specifics about why we feel as we do - whether others agree or not, they are our reasons.

PR has not only denied any issues but simply used the 'he don't like me very much, please make the bad man stop bullying me' approach. No facts. No figures. The only time stats were quoted or mentioned was the surprise at Brent's win % (as they clearly didn't know) and which was wrong, and when this season's stats were claimed to be the best in recent years. Which I know sent our official statto into a mathematical paradox looking for non-existent proof..

Whilst this level of denial exists, and whilst a number of people who want to say 'it's the past, it doesn't matter' remain, posting here is like yelling in a hurricane.

Perhaps when we receive the answers to the questions canvassed by the CDRA during the 'outside' protest, we will have a clearer understanding.

My belief is those answers will be met with a pat on the head, a ruffle of our collective hair and a 'you don't understand how hard it is to run this club, sonny' response. (from PR, not CDRA!)

Or, in keeping with previous content, personal attacks and denial of issues.

 

[mazza03]

Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Do we know when we will receive these answers? It seems to be taking quite a while.