CDRA Open letter
- Thread starter Sheincar
- Start date
Sorry to butt in here..but
You all need to forgive/forget old issues
Stick together for benefit of the club
If i was running a club i would Definately take notice and act if a significant portion of fans were unhappy as i wouldnt want the gate receipts to fall..if my actions were puting the finances at critical risk then i would be an idiot..
See i think that there is a similar belief for many Fife fans that we should be challenging for the league given history..Devils are one of the great names but with attendafes of 1500 cant really compete with arena teams over a season any more?
You all need to forgive/forget old issues
Stick together for benefit of the club
If i was running a club i would Definately take notice and act if a significant portion of fans were unhappy as i wouldnt want the gate receipts to fall..if my actions were puting the finances at critical risk then i would be an idiot..
See i think that there is a similar belief for many Fife fans that we should be challenging for the league given history..Devils are one of the great names but with attendafes of 1500 cant really compete with arena teams over a season any more?
Absolutely , but my problem is that the people on here who have their own agenda feel the need to ram it down everyones throat at every opportunity !! There are people on here who I dislike intensely and feel they are doing more harm to this club than anything Pope or Ragan could ever do , but I dont mention them in nearly everything I post on . I tried to have a couple of reasoned conversation in Scotland about the goings on but because I said I will not be protesting etc... I was basically shouted down and told my opinion didnt count !!
This isn't aimed at you in any way Sheincar, your comment just kind of lead me into it.
This isn't aimed at you in any way Sheincar, your comment just kind of lead me into it.
Thread starter
#45
In an sense this has nothing to do with history, apart from this owner treating fans with the same sort of arrogance as a previous owner until he realised that, without the fans he had nothing. WE accept that the team under G over achieved given the resources available to him however Ragan has moaned today that we've slipped down the league & it's not good enough. I feel that we are, at best, a 4th place team given the size of our crowds & limited ability to raise additional funding. As I've said before 4th is an over achievement whereas Ragan regards that as the minimum he should expect as a return on his investment. That is simply not feasible when we are up against the likes of Nottingham/Belfast/Sheffield & now Braehead. Coventry & us can either be regarded as the bottom of the top half of the table or the top of the bottom half of the table. I believe fans realise this but unfortunately I don't think Ragan does. As a consequence he has unreasonable expectations of the players.
Do the CDRA have the necessary qualities to act as mediators? Patience, impartiality, creativity, listening skills, understanding behaviours?
Do the CDRA have the skills to let the parties involved reach their own solutions, rather than directing them to one?
Why are the CDRA propagating the myth that this is about Paul Sullivan vs the Devils?
For me the the CDRA are not the right group of people to mediate, because they are a stake holder in the outcome and as such will hold an opinion of what the rights & wrongs of each point raised.
If this does not get sorted out correctly, the wounds will continue to fester and will haunt the club again and again until properly addressed.
Actions of the club management speak louder than the words they have said. If management acted in a fit & proper manor, treating people with dignity & respect the fans would not be protesting.
The first step I would suggest is for the club to stop dismissing the discontent that have caused, the extent they have caused it. This can be achieved by clearly stating they will discuss, listen, explain, change, keep an open mind and change it if needs be.
With out that, When the Club continues to refuse to acknowledge me and currently 151 other fans that have said the will or may participate in the #DevilsOutside on Thursday, Calling off the protest in my opinion,
will only lead to further denial of the problems they have caused and to what extent the dissatisfaction exists.
Do the CDRA have the skills to let the parties involved reach their own solutions, rather than directing them to one?
Why are the CDRA propagating the myth that this is about Paul Sullivan vs the Devils?
For me the the CDRA are not the right group of people to mediate, because they are a stake holder in the outcome and as such will hold an opinion of what the rights & wrongs of each point raised.
If this does not get sorted out correctly, the wounds will continue to fester and will haunt the club again and again until properly addressed.
Actions of the club management speak louder than the words they have said. If management acted in a fit & proper manor, treating people with dignity & respect the fans would not be protesting.
The first step I would suggest is for the club to stop dismissing the discontent that have caused, the extent they have caused it. This can be achieved by clearly stating they will discuss, listen, explain, change, keep an open mind and change it if needs be.
With out that, When the Club continues to refuse to acknowledge me and currently 151 other fans that have said the will or may participate in the #DevilsOutside on Thursday, Calling off the protest in my opinion,
will only lead to further denial of the problems they have caused and to what extent the dissatisfaction exists.
Who can say what qualities are needed? There seems to be little "quality" anywhere in the problems confronting the Devils. Just rhetoric and entrenchment on all (not both) sides of the debate.
Just trying to act as mediators, but it's beginning to feel like Aid Workers in a civil war - shot at by everyone, appreciated by no one. In the end they pull out and let the factions go about joyfully destroying each other.
It's not just about Sullivan/Ragan, but this particular skirmish in the civil war is. #DevilsOutside has a visible face, I applaud - loudly and sincerely applaud - Mr Sullivan for making himself and his position known. We are asking both side to pause and consider the unforeseen consequences, nothing more, but nothing less.
It's election time for the CDRA starting Thursday. You, and all of those who think they can do better, are welcome, nay, encouraged, to put yourselves forward.
There's one vacancy already. I'm not standing in this election. The first of the Aid Workers who's fed up of being shot at by those he was only trying to help.
John Mason - CDRA Membership.
PS. Maybe everyone should man-up and sign their posts!
Just trying to act as mediators, but it's beginning to feel like Aid Workers in a civil war - shot at by everyone, appreciated by no one. In the end they pull out and let the factions go about joyfully destroying each other.
It's not just about Sullivan/Ragan, but this particular skirmish in the civil war is. #DevilsOutside has a visible face, I applaud - loudly and sincerely applaud - Mr Sullivan for making himself and his position known. We are asking both side to pause and consider the unforeseen consequences, nothing more, but nothing less.
It's election time for the CDRA starting Thursday. You, and all of those who think they can do better, are welcome, nay, encouraged, to put yourselves forward.
There's one vacancy already. I'm not standing in this election. The first of the Aid Workers who's fed up of being shot at by those he was only trying to help.
John Mason - CDRA Membership.
PS. Maybe everyone should man-up and sign their posts!
I'm not sure if CDRA are the right people to mediate but is there anyone connected at all with the Devils who would be considered so?
I do applaud the intent but as Baz says I believe there needs to be some public acknowledgement from management of the discontent that exists in a number of fans before this could proceed.
This sums up my feelings very well.
To add - Dom Bate, ST holder Block 3 G4.
I do applaud the intent but as Baz says I believe there needs to be some public acknowledgement from management of the discontent that exists in a number of fans before this could proceed.
This sums up my feelings very well.
To add - Dom Bate, ST holder Block 3 G4.
+1 excellent post!
Sheincar is also spot on. We have overachieved in the past and "its all your fault, G & Franny!"
We should have won the league but Sheffield got the glory, we've been at every playoffs in EIHL, had the budget for x place team in the league and have always exceeded the expectations or budgets etc......
Quite honestly exceeding targets is never a good thing as the target is always higher and even more unachieavable the next year!
Because we were top of the league on an x place budget
PR thinks we can do it every year, but the fans are realistic and realise its not gonna happen, unless we go back to the chequebook hockey we're never gonna compete with Belfast, Nottingham, Sheffield ..
We're also never gonna perform when there's so much uncertainty for the players, it must be really tough being in their skates at the moment!
I really appreciate what SORAC did for us and don't want to lose the Devils but really don't understand the thinking with the club at the moment.
As someone else has already said they would be worried if they were the owner seeing a fall in ticket sales, mumblings of not renewing st's, not going to games. Surely if Paul Ragan is still planning on running the Devils next season he and others should be thinking this?!!
Well one thing I would say is quality needs as a mediator, would be the ability to take questions on with out feeling its a personal attack against them. When the 'Aid Workers' start firing shots back are they truly 'Aid Workers'? You may serve your objectives better if you count to 10 and word your communications more carefully.
Re doing better, I have never said I could do a better job.
You know me as Barrie Peers, I do not feel the need to sign every post with my name but by no means do I hide behind my user name and it has nothing to do with my manliness.
Re doing better, I have never said I could do a better job.
You know me as Barrie Peers, I do not feel the need to sign every post with my name but by no means do I hide behind my user name and it has nothing to do with my manliness.
This is the part I fail to understand either, especially after PR makes out this is all about the 'business'. We are losing fans at a rate of knots, regardless how many 'cretins' and 'militia' he thinks there are, the problem is bigger than that where people are just fed up. This has to be our worst for attendances in years but according to Ragan it's just the protesters/milita/cretins/Steelers in desguise fault; 600 to a quarter final game is definitely a bigger problem than what '20 or so' people can make. The business is in trouble, if it isnt it is just a matter of time. He needs to build bridges and fast and stop with this ridiculous 'my way or no way' defiance. He should know as well as anyone you cannot run a business where you are disliked by such a majority, you HAVE to appeal to your customers - he doesnt need this drama 1 year before the main event of moving into the new arena but is doing nothing to help himself.
Paul Hoskins, Block 3 Row C Seat 6.
Paul Hoskins, Block 3 Row C Seat 6.
Devils Advocate. Isn't the point of owner management that they have the deciding vote. I think in essence what the #devilsoutside are looking for is to form a democracy by the level of consultation being requested. I don't think on any level that is practical and in the world of reality if you want your voice heard at that level you pony up and put your money where you mouth is. Genuine question. Has anyone consulted Ragan on taking a shareholding in the club to make a difference from the inside.
As has been said. If people cannot achieve what they want. Namely to be rid of Ragan and Pope. What do they want in real terms to move forward. I.e. What are you protesting for not about.
And I would say. What is this about. Player treatment? Sponsor treatment? Press releases? History? Future? It's all well and good being head of the hindsight committee but to be constructive it's about solutions. If their are monies outstanding on contracts it should be paid expediently but I do get a feeling some complaints are also elevated above their scale due to proximity to players and their personal circumstances. People have altercations with their employers daily but do they all end with 150 of your customer base forming a picket line outside. Their has been nothing official from any player of issues. It is all hearsay. Are the players guilty of utilising a fan base to exert pressure to resolve industrial issues. If contracts are breached I'm all for action as that is the cornerstone of employment but some of the other things I've heard I must conclude people must have had pretty rosie employment histories to believe they are of a scale requiring protest and some others are topics that frankly fans have no reason to protest over due to shear un education.
I stress I am not a Ragan or Pope sympathiser. If they cannot honour there obligations to the business and respect the history and future of the Devils then they deserve to hear criticism. They endanger the long term survival of the Devils if they alienate supporters, sponsors and players. But a supporters protest also adds up to the same endangerment. Sponsors won't want association with that. It's producing a toxic environment for fans to enjoy the game and it makes the Devils name synonymous with unrest to new players.
It is a two way street and people should be appreciative of the wheels being set in motion by protest. The call from CDRA also mirrors what another % of the fan base believes. To disregard that % by both sides is just as combative as between the two sides. You believe its two factions. It's truely three.
As has been said. If people cannot achieve what they want. Namely to be rid of Ragan and Pope. What do they want in real terms to move forward. I.e. What are you protesting for not about.
And I would say. What is this about. Player treatment? Sponsor treatment? Press releases? History? Future? It's all well and good being head of the hindsight committee but to be constructive it's about solutions. If their are monies outstanding on contracts it should be paid expediently but I do get a feeling some complaints are also elevated above their scale due to proximity to players and their personal circumstances. People have altercations with their employers daily but do they all end with 150 of your customer base forming a picket line outside. Their has been nothing official from any player of issues. It is all hearsay. Are the players guilty of utilising a fan base to exert pressure to resolve industrial issues. If contracts are breached I'm all for action as that is the cornerstone of employment but some of the other things I've heard I must conclude people must have had pretty rosie employment histories to believe they are of a scale requiring protest and some others are topics that frankly fans have no reason to protest over due to shear un education.
I stress I am not a Ragan or Pope sympathiser. If they cannot honour there obligations to the business and respect the history and future of the Devils then they deserve to hear criticism. They endanger the long term survival of the Devils if they alienate supporters, sponsors and players. But a supporters protest also adds up to the same endangerment. Sponsors won't want association with that. It's producing a toxic environment for fans to enjoy the game and it makes the Devils name synonymous with unrest to new players.
It is a two way street and people should be appreciative of the wheels being set in motion by protest. The call from CDRA also mirrors what another % of the fan base believes. To disregard that % by both sides is just as combative as between the two sides. You believe its two factions. It's truely three.
I have been a fan 25 years and have never felt that this owner or any other owner has treated me with arrogance. I buy a ticket to watch a hockey match. If we win Im happy If we lose Im not. Simples. But then I don't feel a need to be consulted or have any say in the running of the team which I think is where the problem lies. The people who want to have a say are unhappy, the people who think a fans job is just to watch the game and cheer the team can't seem what all the fuss is about.
Its very much Deja Vu. I thought all this would stop when Bob went but clearly it hasn't.
Its very much Deja Vu. I thought all this would stop when Bob went but clearly it hasn't.
Hi Barrie. I didn't know you by your user name.
Mediators don't ask or answer questions of their own. They endeavour to have the opponents ask and answer each others questions and draw attention to possible areas of compromise. I always choose my words with care. I have wide experience at the highest levels of Real Politics and understand the significance of a single comma.
Aid Workers do fire back in self defence. Do you expect them to just line up and be shot by the blood crazed warriors who are attacking. But they do it as I am - whilst escaping the War Zone. Working with a metaphor is fun, isn't it.
I had no objectives to serve other than to stop the inevitable blood bath where there are no winners or losers, just casualties. With no owner and less season ticket holders, those left bleeding will be the innocent bystanders who once liked to enjoy a hockey night in Cardiff.
If you believe that everyone has a motive or self-serving objective, you are wrong. I was asked to help by a very good friend during last summer when the CDRA was set up. My motive was friendship. I didn't have a clue about what a pain in the arse it would turn out to be.
I have no interest in this internal petty minded squabble. So I'm staying friends and withdrawing my help (for what it may have been worth to anyone who would have availed themselves of it).
As for the rest - best of luck. I hope there will still be a hockey-night to enjoy in years to come no matter who owns, coaches or supports it.
Mediators don't ask or answer questions of their own. They endeavour to have the opponents ask and answer each others questions and draw attention to possible areas of compromise. I always choose my words with care. I have wide experience at the highest levels of Real Politics and understand the significance of a single comma.
Aid Workers do fire back in self defence. Do you expect them to just line up and be shot by the blood crazed warriors who are attacking. But they do it as I am - whilst escaping the War Zone. Working with a metaphor is fun, isn't it.
I had no objectives to serve other than to stop the inevitable blood bath where there are no winners or losers, just casualties. With no owner and less season ticket holders, those left bleeding will be the innocent bystanders who once liked to enjoy a hockey night in Cardiff.
If you believe that everyone has a motive or self-serving objective, you are wrong. I was asked to help by a very good friend during last summer when the CDRA was set up. My motive was friendship. I didn't have a clue about what a pain in the arse it would turn out to be.
I have no interest in this internal petty minded squabble. So I'm staying friends and withdrawing my help (for what it may have been worth to anyone who would have availed themselves of it).
As for the rest - best of luck. I hope there will still be a hockey-night to enjoy in years to come no matter who owns, coaches or supports it.
ickle
I don't think you are choosing your words as carefully as you believe John.
I have found some of your comments quite antagonistic. Some times provoked, sometimes not and sometimes from a simple misunderstanding of the point being made.
Some might take that as a slight against the difficulties I have with the written language. Not me might I add, I think I know you better than that.
quite an emotive choice of words John.
Again very emotive choice of words. blood bath, casualties, bleeding, innocent bystanders.
Are you sure you are not to close to this be act as a neutral mediator to all parties?
The only ones with out a motive are the ones that just don't care, it is clear you care a lot and have a great deal of passion John.
again very emotive words.
once again, emotive words relaying your fears that the club will have no future. The the lack of a better word the 'stupid' thing is we are both afraid of the same thing.
I have found some of your comments quite antagonistic. Some times provoked, sometimes not and sometimes from a simple misunderstanding of the point being made.
Some might take that as a slight against the difficulties I have with the written language. Not me might I add, I think I know you better than that.
quite an emotive choice of words John.
Again very emotive choice of words. blood bath, casualties, bleeding, innocent bystanders.
Are you sure you are not to close to this be act as a neutral mediator to all parties?
The only ones with out a motive are the ones that just don't care, it is clear you care a lot and have a great deal of passion John.
again very emotive words.
once again, emotive words relaying your fears that the club will have no future. The the lack of a better word the 'stupid' thing is we are both afraid of the same thing.
I won't quote your last post toy_car_uk for sake of space.
You're quite right, I do care and "emotive" derives from "emotional", because, to be honest, I could cry rivers at the stupidity of it all (Back to those bloody aid workers, I guess!!). Nothing was ever achieved by shouting slogans alone, but slings and arrows are outrageous!
I'm throwing in the towel (which is where the emotion comes from - it's frustration) because as the wise Jon J (Batraven) said recently on Twitter, "Winning Warriors Win, then go to War..."
There'll be no winners here.
My apologies if you took anything as a personal snipe at you, it wasn't. But it was at the stance you seem to support.
I have spoken to only one of the Principal parties in private (I don't know and have never met the other face to face) and believed there to have been lots of wriggle room. Then 24 hours later felt his strength of bitterness in a email. I came up with the idea of an Open Letter and worded it (carefully I hope you'd agree). The other side (although interesting, not its Principal) have set about trashing the concept.
And so, here we are. Troops lined up. War paint on. No hope of Peace Talks.
As a CDRA Committee member I've probably gone further and said more than allowed by the neutrality the Committee wanted to maintain to be effective in Mediation. Also, like all Civil Wars, friends and neighbours end up on opposite sides. Others, like me, don't care about the different stances; they just want a peaceful environment to enjoy life (in this case, hockey). That's the don't care bit. It's hockey friends that matter to me, not who governs the hockey.
And so, hockey friend, a pint in the bar and talk of what might have been seems the best way to close our rather public exchange of views. See you at the rink. First rounds on me.
You're quite right, I do care and "emotive" derives from "emotional", because, to be honest, I could cry rivers at the stupidity of it all (Back to those bloody aid workers, I guess!!). Nothing was ever achieved by shouting slogans alone, but slings and arrows are outrageous!
I'm throwing in the towel (which is where the emotion comes from - it's frustration) because as the wise Jon J (Batraven) said recently on Twitter, "Winning Warriors Win, then go to War..."
There'll be no winners here.
My apologies if you took anything as a personal snipe at you, it wasn't. But it was at the stance you seem to support.
I have spoken to only one of the Principal parties in private (I don't know and have never met the other face to face) and believed there to have been lots of wriggle room. Then 24 hours later felt his strength of bitterness in a email. I came up with the idea of an Open Letter and worded it (carefully I hope you'd agree). The other side (although interesting, not its Principal) have set about trashing the concept.
And so, here we are. Troops lined up. War paint on. No hope of Peace Talks.
As a CDRA Committee member I've probably gone further and said more than allowed by the neutrality the Committee wanted to maintain to be effective in Mediation. Also, like all Civil Wars, friends and neighbours end up on opposite sides. Others, like me, don't care about the different stances; they just want a peaceful environment to enjoy life (in this case, hockey). That's the don't care bit. It's hockey friends that matter to me, not who governs the hockey.
And so, hockey friend, a pint in the bar and talk of what might have been seems the best way to close our rather public exchange of views. See you at the rink. First rounds on me.
I don't understand this 'opposite sides' or claims the fanbase will be split.
The protest is outside. Fans not interested in attending will be able to walk in as normal. In fact, queues might be shorter and there will be more space in the bar before the game. I don't understand how it will affect their match night experience?
If the protest was happening inside then fair enough, I could understand the complaints. But to me it looks like every effort possible has been made to ensure those fans who don't want to protest are in no way affected?
The protest is outside. Fans not interested in attending will be able to walk in as normal. In fact, queues might be shorter and there will be more space in the bar before the game. I don't understand how it will affect their match night experience?
If the protest was happening inside then fair enough, I could understand the complaints. But to me it looks like every effort possible has been made to ensure those fans who don't want to protest are in no way affected?