Surely Enough Is Enough

Sliput · Nov 8, 2013

DevilDom said:

I don't think that was the OP's point.

Yes, the club is in a mess BUT whinging and moaning about it on here isn't going to help. We have to remember, there is still a team to support and by that I mean the guys ON the ice. Regardless of what is going on off it our players still need our support.

Things off the ice will either implode and leave the club in danger of folding or things will improve. Hopefully the OFF ice team will learn that as paying fans we should not be treated to the kind of PR disasters etc....that we have had to put up with and that is turning our once great club into an laughing stock.

You are right Paul, we don't have to read the posts but why should we see a title , go into read it just to see it descend into the same crap time and time again ? This is not THF !!

When you strip it back there are two options,

1. Turn up and support your team
2. Don't

I am not saying either one is right or wrong as it is peoples own choice. I am also not saying that it should all be swept under the carpet and that we should ignore what has been going on but it is still the Cardiff Devils on the ice and , well for me anyway, that is still my team.

Have a great weekend

Finny · Nov 8, 2013

Surely it's better for people to let off their steam and anger on here, than to bottle it up and potentially released it towards the team during the game?

I want our club to do well. I want us to be back to where we used to be as the #1 team in the UK. So if I see something that I think is hindering that - should I just ignore it?

Or should I comment on it, in the hope that the club will realise they have made a mistake and act on it. The twitter feeds on Tuesday were an embarrassment to the club. Every forum I have been on as commented on it and mocked us, whilst also feeling sorry for the fans and players.
As a result, the club have acted and have changed their Social Media Policy. And that is good to see.

DevilDom · Nov 8, 2013

Sliput said:

I disagree. You are over symplyfing things and trying to do what management are doing by saying if I am annoyed and angry about the way the club is being run I am either not a loyal or true fan or are part of some so called Militia.

How about I turn up and support the team, but continue to be annoyed with the way the club is being run and if I feel the need speak up about it?

Have a great weekend too.

Sliput · Nov 8, 2013

Finny said:

I have no problem with people getting angry/wanting to let off steam etc.....

I am not saying to ignore it but how many threads are started off positively and then descend into the same negativety again and again ??

Maybe we should have a thread named ''Letting off steam'' where everyone can go to ... let off steam.

Release their anger towards the team ? where on earth did that come from !!

danhall76 · Nov 8, 2013

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!! Too many identical threads, posters bitching at each other and hidden agendas.

This forum is frankly ruining hockey for me so I'm done until you all calm down.

I'll just keep going along and watching the sport I fell in love with, I find it a joke that a load of random peoples opinions should nearly kill my passion for this great sport.

Hopefully all the toys will be back in the pram soon and there might be a hockey game or two discussed on here again.

Laters.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

Earnie · Nov 8, 2013

danhall76 said:

Count me in with Danhall 76.
I am done with posting on this forum whilst a handful of bitter individuals wreck enjoyment for everyone. You know who you are. You are like a computer virus and creep into every topic.
When sanity returns ..............................

HJ

jodysstillagirlsname · Nov 8, 2013

This is a forum - a place for discussion

Team has probably had worst start for many seasons :-

Coaches fault - Discuss
Losing First Choice nm - discuss
Apparent strange Management decisions- discuss
Cutting players early in season, sporting reasons, financial reasons discuss
Media releases good or bad- discuss

All of these are what makes a forum what it is

I will be the first to be positive when the club announce the signing if it is a positive signing and to be honest when you are short benched any body is better than no body.

Enjoyment of the forum is not measured by how happy clappy you may be or how militant you are percieved to be.

Why do we not have a happy clappy thread as well as a let off steam thread and a moany thread

Eg I think the new signing is great because good stats, would suit this league, would do well in this league or itis a bad signing because blah blah.

and not I think the new signing is great because he is a Devil, the only thing available or the management signed him so he must be good

These things back up posts and create healthy debate, the proof of course is when he starts playing and the debate continues.

We could alternately have a fan adulation message board where everyone just goes on and says Pope is a great coach, Ragan is the next Alan Sugar, Lacotsa should be number one in NHL but that isn't a forum and neither is name calling ( for the posters that said I was childish ) Challenge the content of the posts in an adult debate.

I have no personal feelings against anyone who can challenge and debate, not everyone agrees apart from on one thing. Everybody wants hockey to remain in the City and one persons way forward may not align to another persons way forward.

The thing that can't be seperated is the off ice/on ice thing, the off ice thing needs to be right to give the players the right environment to feel comfortable with the club (Their Employer ) and the fans (the customers of their employer) to be able to buy in to the Cardiff Devils ethos and its proud history

Ocko · Nov 8, 2013

I actually thought this thread was quite a reasoned debate. People should be allowed to moan, the purpose of this forum is discuss issues from different sides and that is what this thread was doing unlike a lot of them.

As someone who has always stayed very clear of the inner workings of the club, rink, supporters club etc even though I've been a fan for 20+ years I am genuinely interested to hear the views of posters like Jody, Paul etc and their reasons even though I don't necessarily agree with them on a lot of things. After all some of these posters are a fair bit more clued up than the majority of people such has been their involvement. if you don't agree with the militia (that is their official title now) it is good to know why they say the things they do and their genuine feeling behind the more emotive comments.

Until the last page or so this thread was exactly what the forum is about.

Mooney#16 · Nov 8, 2013

To be honest this situation is a can of worms. The people who are the staunchest of critics of the current ownership are also people with big histories attached to the club and personalities within it. These are all people who have contributed and assisted in its history and feel very passionately about seeing a perceived dismantling of a heritage they played a roll in shaping. I can see why they have the opinions they do.

But these people are also guilty of having got to close to an organisation that it has become a very personal thing for them and in some cases gone very sour. Many wouldn't like to be told it but some of there actions contribute to exactly the same dismantling they feel is going on.

The truth is no one believes G was handled well and karma will often catch up to people. It can also be said that the Cardiff a Devils have scored a lot of own goals in there history that embarrass the proud history of the club. However everyone needs a reality check about the Devils current situation. The expectations amongst the fan base are unrealistic. This has also been fed by the ownership who I also believe have an unrealistic opinion of what there money should be getting them. Devils are a mid table team with a mid table budget playing in a bottom of the league arena. FACT. This constant drive for success seems to result in where the failings begin with the financial pressures driving more and more bizarre behaviour in order to compete. Recognising your natural position and operating within would be far more simple. But the fan base also needs to realise the a Devils position. They are in a conference with the three arena teams. They will lose to them a lot. It's not a crisis it's natural order. Coventry are the closest comparison and the a Devils put them to the sword.

Does anyone want to see the Devils cease. Not a chance. So some common ground is there. However to long for some sort of public accountability statement from ownership. I think people will wait a while. Yes Ragen has an ego. It works to ways. So convinced is he he can make a go of the Devils that he invests in it. A fool and his money and all that. Does he make mistakes because of that ego. Yes again but that is human nature.

I think the fan base needs to step back. For years the Cardiff Devils have been a simmering political cauldron and highly divided fan base. People say knowledgeable. Maybe to knowledgeable about the inner workings of the club. The basic premise is. Pay money. Watch your team play another team. Live the roller coaster of emotions and then leave it all at the rink. What happens in between is the business of the employer and employees. As long as you are getting your monies worth really your right to object is null and void.

For some the feelings are deep and that is unfortunate but those are personal issues. The airing of these from both fans and ownership is pointless. No one is truly acting with class but above all else it perpetuates the cycle. Eventually it has to be broken for the Devils to achieve what all sides claim they want and that is a successful club and team. So for me being honest the less I hear from the Devils ownership and alienated fan group the better for the rest of the season.

jodysstillagirlsname · Nov 8, 2013

Mooney#16 said:

To be honest this situation is a can of worms. The people who are the staunchest of critics of the current ownership are also people with big histories attached to the club and personalities within it. These are all people who have contributed and assisted in its history and feel very passionately about seeing a perceived dismantling of a heritage they played a roll in shaping. I can see why they have the opinions they do.

But these people are also guilty of having got to close to an organisation that it has become a very personal thing for them and in some cases gone very sour. Many wouldn't like to be told it but some of there actions contribute to exactly the same dismantling they feel is going on.

The truth is no one believes G was handled well and karma will often catch up to people. It can also be said that the Cardiff a Devils have scored a lot of own goals in there history that embarrass the proud history of the club. However everyone needs a reality check about the Devils current situation. The expectations amongst the fan base are unrealistic. This has also been fed by the ownership who I also believe have an unrealistic opinion of what there money should be getting them. Devils are a mid table team with a mid table budget playing in a bottom of the league arena. FACT. This constant drive for success seems to result in where the failings begin with the financial pressures driving more and more bizarre behaviour in order to compete. Recognising your natural position and operating within would be far more simple. But the fan base also needs to realise the a Devils position. They are in a conference with the three arena teams. They will lose to them a lot. It's not a crisis it's natural order. Coventry are the closest comparison and the a Devils put them to the sword.

Does anyone want to see the Devils cease. Not a chance. So some common ground is there. However to long for some sort of public accountability statement from ownership. I think people will wait a while. Yes Ragen has an ego. It works to ways. So convinced is he he can make a go of the Devils that he invests in it. A fool and his money and all that. Does he make mistakes because of that ego. Yes again but that is human nature.

I think the fan base needs to step back. For years the Cardiff Devils have been a simmering political cauldron and highly divided fan base. People say knowledgeable. Maybe to knowledgeable about the inner workings of the club. The basic premise is. Pay money. Watch your team play another team. Live the roller coaster of emotions and then leave it all at the rink. What happens in between is the business of the employer and employees. As long as you are getting your monies worth really your right to object is null and void.

For some the feelings are deep and that is unfortunate but those are personal issues. The airing of these from both fans and ownership is pointless. No one is truly acting with class but above all else it perpetuates the cycle. Eventually it has to be broken for the Devils to achieve what all sides claim they want and that is a successful club and team. So for me being honest the less I hear from the Devils ownership and alienated fan group the better for the rest of the season.

Some of this may be true but do you also want to see the end of reasoned debate ? if so we just as well end the forum. I will praise the new signing as a positive move in the right direction. It also raise some questions which I won't debate tonight apart from one of them. Don't want to be accused of jumping on a positive move with what will probably be perceived as negativity

Will this be enough to prevent the G chant on 55 mins and show the fanbase to be fickle ?

Will probably be slated for asking and accused of calling the fanbase names but I am genuinely interested in the answer

Slartibartfast · Nov 9, 2013

Mooney#16 said:

To be honest this situation is a can of worms. The people who are the staunchest of critics of the current ownership are also people with big histories attached to the club and personalities within it. These are all people who have contributed and assisted in its history and feel very passionately about seeing a perceived dismantling of a heritage they played a roll in shaping. I can see why they have the opinions they do.

But these people are also guilty of having got to close to an organisation that it has become a very personal thing for them and in some cases gone very sour. Many wouldn't like to be told it but some of there actions contribute to exactly the same dismantling they feel is going on.

The truth is no one believes G was handled well and karma will often catch up to people. It can also be said that the Cardiff a Devils have scored a lot of own goals in there history that embarrass the proud history of the club. However everyone needs a reality check about the Devils current situation. The expectations amongst the fan base are unrealistic. This has also been fed by the ownership who I also believe have an unrealistic opinion of what there money should be getting them. Devils are a mid table team with a mid table budget playing in a bottom of the league arena. FACT. This constant drive for success seems to result in where the failings begin with the financial pressures driving more and more bizarre behaviour in order to compete. Recognising your natural position and operating within would be far more simple. But the fan base also needs to realise the a Devils position. They are in a conference with the three arena teams. They will lose to them a lot. It's not a crisis it's natural order. Coventry are the closest comparison and the a Devils put them to the sword.

Does anyone want to see the Devils cease. Not a chance. So some common ground is there. However to long for some sort of public accountability statement from ownership. I think people will wait a while. Yes Ragen has an ego. It works to ways. So convinced is he he can make a go of the Devils that he invests in it. A fool and his money and all that. Does he make mistakes because of that ego. Yes again but that is human nature.

I think the fan base needs to step back. For years the Cardiff Devils have been a simmering political cauldron and highly divided fan base. People say knowledgeable. Maybe to knowledgeable about the inner workings of the club. The basic premise is. Pay money. Watch your team play another team. Live the roller coaster of emotions and then leave it all at the rink. What happens in between is the business of the employer and employees. As long as you are getting your monies worth really your right to object is null and void.

For some the feelings are deep and that is unfortunate but those are personal issues. The airing of these from both fans and ownership is pointless. No one is truly acting with class but above all else it perpetuates the cycle. Eventually it has to be broken for the Devils to achieve what all sides claim they want and that is a successful club and team. So for me being honest the less I hear from the Devils ownership and alienated fan group the better for the rest of the season.

+1, Like and Retweet.
You said a lot of what I have been thinking but I could not think of a diplomatic way of putting it.

drainage · Nov 9, 2013

Paul Sullivan said:

Helen that's a good post. I know you don't need me to tell you that either

I think it is right when people say there have been some darker sides to out fanbase emerging. However I would suggest that has happened to both those criticising the management and those who are critical of them.

For example - when Paul Ragan called a group of us 'militia' it was pretty much widely seen as a gaff, and poor judgement. Yet in this thread alone the same fans have been called 'Mafia' by a moderator and 'fans' (granted I am inferring you to mean those of us who have been outspoken and apologies if you did not) by yourself.

Whilst not the owners of the Club, that to me is no less disrespectful simply because we share opposing views, or outlooks on how to express them and highlight the need for change (of ownership or the style of it) on a Devils forum.

It's interesting that throughout the recent ineptitude (G saga, name-calling, the whole 'FACT' episode), there has been an element of the outspoken and angry supporters being seen as 'wrong'. It's not as simple as that really, but to gloss over the recent events, added to many additional ones where sponsors have been mistreated or lost, simply because one might be nervous of losing this brand of hockey is, for my money alone, wholly the wrong reasons to 'support the team'.

I completely respect everyone's position, I have never tried to get anyone else to say or comment anything from my viewpoint in this, and I understand that other supporters may not agree. However there is a laundry list of problems, growing almost daily, whereas on the other side we see one common argument, and it really does get distilled into the philosophy of a lot of PR's twitter activity:

'Real' fans wouldn't behave as I have.

Poppycock. Tell that to the MK Dons. Tell that to the people who raised the larger part of the £70k that the players were owed by Bob Phillips. That was done, and began by, noticing the cracks; the errors, the erratic and manic behaviours and the total disrespect for our Club and it's reputation. Not something that was done lightly then, or now.

If as PR has suggested there are only 20 who disagree with him then everyone can just tune out the noise and be happy that the 'Real' fans will be packing out the BBT like they did against Hull last Thursday.

Or we could accept that those on here, and indeed Twitter, do not represent the whole fanbase, however indicative, yet see the effect of the current regime's acts played out on the official attendance.

People are, and have been voting with their feet. Like hell do I think it's because of what I say on twitter or what, with respect, Jody says on here. They are intelligent fans who have made their own minds up to not buy a ticket or, in some extreme cases, cancel the ST they already have.

That is a massive judgement call, and I defy anyone to call, for example, Mandy Bates out for not being a 'Real' fan.

This doesn't have to come down to fan vs fan, however opposed the views are on this matter. And please don't take this post as being aimed in any way at you personally, I just picked up on that one aspect of your post to begin.

Those of us who are opposed to the way Brent and Paul are managing the club are no more some rabid militia than those who choose to support them are mindless drones without the ability to make their own decisions. It is only the Clubs style of communication that positions us in such a manner.

Just because you love something doesn't mean you can't be critical of it. Especially when 'it' is bigger than any of us, any owner or MD, Coach or anyone else. There is a common misconception that I often see repeated. That this is about Paul or Brent. No. It's about the Cardiff Devils, and what they are doing to that name.

Our views on that don't warrant marginalisation as a militant group any more than anyone else's views should have them labelled as 'happy clappers'. This is a subtle and complex situation with nuance and layers. It's not simply 'right' and 'wrong'.

As for the OP's question - I wholeheartedly agree with you that enough is enough. But not the difference of opinions - the decisions that have brought us here. Nothing in our recent history indicates things will be any better in the future, We have devolved as an organisation in this Calendar year at an alarming rate.

Sorry for the long post.

Sully who knew I could be sane and rational! Not my parents! I never question peoples right to speak I may not like the way they do it ....and that's club and fans by the way but we live in a democracy and long may that continue .. But for me right now we need to calm it all down and see what happens

I hate the way other teams are using what's happening here to extract the urine and let it gloss over their own problems .....right now if you love hockey in Cardiff we have a team that needs support I intend to give it!

Mooney#16 · Nov 9, 2013

jodysstillagirlsname said:

Mooney#16 said:

Some of this may be true but do you also want to see the end of reasoned debate ? if so we just as well end the forum. I will praise the new signing as a positive move in the right direction. It also raise some questions which I won't debate tonight apart from one of them. Don't want to be accused of jumping on a positive move with what will probably be perceived as negativity

Will this be enough to prevent the G chant on 55 mins and show the fanbase to be fickle ?

Will probably be slated for asking and accused of calling the fanbase names but I am genuinely interested in the answer

In no way would I condone the end of reasoned debate or any impact being made on the forum. It's a great voice of the fans. But some of what has passed in recent times has stretched the boundaries of reasoned debate and got very personal to the point of being a side show distraction. As I said I personally am grateful for the impact a lot of these fans have had on the Devils and Ice Hockey in South Wales but as much as I have gratitude it is also coupled with bewilderment and apathy to all the dirty laundry being aired in public. Bottom line is it contributes in a small way to taking the fun out of the devils. To this end I include the management in this as they have blurred the lines of acceptable communication and conduct on more than one occasion.

Ref the G chant. Personally I hope it doesn't stop. Until his contract has been paid up in full and his testimonial given the support it deserves by the club I think that specific subject does not have closure and should be kept in the fore front of the fans and managements conscious. Support the team with a loud voice for the other 59 mins but for that particular minute I'm all for reminding the management of their actions and responsibilities.

WelshHabsFan · Nov 9, 2013

'I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.'
-Evelyn Beatrice Hall

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

osh · Nov 9, 2013

Only wish G had worn the number 66 shirt!

jodysstillagirlsname · Nov 9, 2013

Mooney#16 said:

jodysstillagirlsname said:

In no way would I condone the end of reasoned debate or any impact being made on the forum. It's a great voice of the fans. But some of what has passed in recent times has stretched the boundaries of reasoned debate and got very personal to the point of being a side show distraction. As I said I personally am grateful for the impact a lot of these fans have had on the Devils and Ice Hockey in South Wales but as much as I have gratitude it is also coupled with bewilderment and apathy to all the dirty laundry being aired in public. Bottom line is it contributes in a small way to taking the fun out of the devils. To this end I include the management in this as they have blurred the lines of acceptable communication and conduct on more than one occasion.

Ref the G chant. Personally I hope it doesn't stop. Until his contract has been paid up in full and his testimonial given the support it deserves by the club I think that specific subject does not have closure and should be kept in the fore front of the fans and managements conscious. Support the team with a loud voice for the other 59 mins but for that particular minute I'm all for reminding the management of their actions and responsibilities.

Good on you, very pleased to hear it

Surely Enough Is Enough

Sliput

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Finny

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DevilDom

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Sliput

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danhall76

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Earnie

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jodysstillagirlsname

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Ocko

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Mooney#16

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jodysstillagirlsname

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Slartibartfast

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drainage

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Mooney#16

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WelshHabsFan

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osh

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