PAYMENTS STILL OUTSTANDING TO CARDIFF DEVILS’ PLAYERS!

[Petercw]

The need to have some level of information of the extent and what is actually outstanding is important in making a judgement on whether each individual chooses to support the current ownership or not.

I personally would feel very differently if the outstanding amounts are unpaid expenses that are disagreed between employee and employer and should be resolved through grievance procedure, as compared to large amounts of unpaid salaries.

So I reserve judgement until I know what the extent the problem is.

 

[Koop11]

I don’t think it’s fair to criticize those who would prefer to see actual evidence to support the claims of the CDRA before making a judgement. At the same time I don’t think it’s appropriate to share personal/contractual information publically. A difficult scenario.

Many will have no reason not to believe the CDRA. Unfortunately for the Devils management, they have a poor track record during the last couple of years of gaining the trust of the fans. Their response to CDRA’s recent statement, whilst appropriate in its own right, does not deny the claim of players not being paid. This clearly doesn’t help their case for winning over fans who are sitting and waiting for the facts to transpire before making a judgement on the situation. Some would say that there is no smoke without fire. Others might suggest innocent until proven guilty.

If the players have not been paid then its exceptionally poor practice. It is of course hugely damaging to the players but also the club as a whole. This alleged scenario is not the first time this has happened at this club and it’s a very sad day if this has happened again.

Assuming of course that this has happened then I think the CDRA’s gesture to support the players is a welcome one. I can understand that many will be reluctant out of principle because they would be indirectly supporting the owner in covering his shortfall. I would also agree that it would be useful to have some idea of the amount of shortfall that needs to be met. This will help fans decide on whether or not to contribute or to determine how much.

Whether this situation is true or not, the fact remains that this is more mud being thrown at this once great hockey club. It’s so difficult to watch and such a dam shame for so many of us.

 

[chillee]

The more I think about it and add the contents of the statement to my thoughts, the more I ask myself, why has no player done anything about it. :roll:

We all can say nobody wants to take their employers to court, but players are not really employee's in the normal sense, the season has ended and technically the players are no longer employed by the club until they renegotiate contracts. The contracts state terms and both parties should be aware of the terms, I don't get the cost implications as most players would have had the contract checked before signing, so if any breach of the terms are broken its a very simple letter demanding payment, if no payment is forthcoming you follow up by either walking away, which should involve keeping your mouth shut or summons the party involved to which they'll send either payment or a defence as to why no payment is made.

Doing nothing and then moaning, will just make it easier for Ragan to defend, as technically until its proved he owes anything, then nothing technically is owed.

 

[djc7]

Further Update On Saturday's Post

Dear Members

"The CDRA are aware that further to our previous statement there continue to be payments outstanding to players following the 2013/14 season, a large part of this owing to one player. We are pleased to say that since our statement one player has received the monies which were due to him.

The statement issued yesterday by the Club has not yet addressed all of the issues raised in our communication, our issues remain the same, and until such point that the sums owing are paid, our position remains the same. We will be communicating the plans for value for money fundraising events in the next few days. By virtue of these events, we will be ensuring that the guys who played under the Cardiff Devils name in the 2013/14 season will be paid what they are owed, whether through legal fees paid or actual money donated.

At this point in time, we are unable to release details of the amounts owed or players affected, as we would not wish to jeopardise any legal proceedings that may have begun and also to protect the players concerned. We do however, thank you for your continued support"

Lisa Guildford
Chair of CDRA
For and on behalf of the CDRA

 

[ASHIPP]

Unless the EIHL grow some balls and kick him out, I can see this season being pretty much a write-off. With a squad made up of a couple of imports, a couple of the local brits and the rest made up from the junior devils.

Bottom place it is.

Even that's optimistic. Will we actually have a team playing in ANY league next season?

A boycott on season tickets means no income for player budget.

But it's even worse than that. Our proud history and club reputation is mud in the ice hockey world. How are players going to be encouraged to come here?

With rumours of Whis not returning and some of our players heading to Steelers/Blaze/Panthers (and who can blame them?) things look bleak.

A very sad and uncertain time for our Club and all its fans.

At a time when positive news would have boosted ST sales, another crisis emerges.

 

[buzzwagon]

The more I think about it and add the contents of the statement to my thoughts, the more I ask myself, why has no player done anything about it. :roll:

We all can say nobody wants to take their employers to court, but players are not really employee's in the normal sense, the season has ended and technically the players are no longer employed by the club until they renegotiate contracts. The contracts state terms and both parties should be aware of the terms, I don't get the cost implications as most players would have had the contract checked before signing, so if any breach of the terms are broken its a very simple letter demanding payment, if no payment is forthcoming you follow up by either walking away, which should involve keeping your mouth shut or summons the party involved to which they'll send either payment or a defence as to why no payment is made.

Doing nothing and then moaning, will just make it easier for Ragan to defend, as technically until its proved he owes anything, then nothing technically is owed.

Pretty straight forward & simple really in your eyes.

Now put yourself in a young imports situation

Maybe first time in Europe.
Not familiar with the British legal system
Very little or no money to appoint a legal representative
Maybe stressed from trying to complete your final studies etc etc

Easy peasy isn't it WD

 

[Finny]

Players aren't going to say anything publicly until they've either got their money and signed with another club, or believe there Is no hope of getting the money anymore.

 

[wildthing74]

People will get their wish its all about timing.

 

[phil PLT]

People will get their wish its all about timing.

I hope that's the wish I want then Jonathan, and sooner rather than later!!

 

[chillee]

Pretty straight forward & simple really in your eyes.

Now put yourself in a young imports situation

Maybe first time in Europe.
Not familiar with the British legal system
Very little or no money to appoint a legal representative
Maybe stressed from trying to complete your final studies etc etc

Easy peasy isn't it WD

Are we assuming the people owed are young imports, is that factual.

A young import that has found his way into the EIHL, does he do this by a google search or luck, I'm assuming it takes a bit of knowledge as well as the obvious hockey skills. Does he sign a contract completely unaware of what he is signing into, does he not have some advice, agent, previous coaches, there is always somebody who knows somebody.

I'm assume their not thick if they are in their final studies.

In your assessment of the situation you paint a picture of nativity, ignorance and some stupidity, but in reality you have a person who has found a professional club, signed up to it, found a course to study, paid for the course, found the college on the first day, enrolled, spoke to people etc etc.

To get free legal advice, issue court proceedings and get basic employment law takes several minutes of research on google. :roll:

I doubt getting that advice is beyond a person moving to the UK to play Ice Hockey professionally & finish their studies, from any developed country in the world.

Its very easy, easier than most people imagine, moving to a country even one that does not speak English, to work and live.

I know from experience, I've felt that emotion of arriving in a hotel room and after the first few minutes of joy, the sudden feeling of oh f88k now what.

I've been there, I've done it.

 

[wildthing74]

People will get their wish its all about timing.

I hope that's the wish I want then Jonathan, and sooner rather than later!!

Wasn't exactly what I meant Phil but I share that wish too :lol:

 

[DevilDom]

I've been there, I've done it.

Perhaps you should be the players rep or offer your wealth of experience in these matters to the players?

Not easy to rock the boat when you are in a foreign country short of cash and half way through a Uni course you know the club could kick you off or at least make it very difficult for you to complete.

I'm sure the players have tried every reasonable action before it has got this far. However when dealing with someone as pig-headed as Ragan I doubt that has been easy.

 

[toy_car_uk]

Chillee, you have already alluded that you would cut your own nose of to spite your face. You want to prove you are right and get your satisfaction.

I would still purse Ragan through the courts, just over principle, I'm kinda like that though, I did it to a client for a £22.00 outstanding invoice. He was never going to get further business from me so what the hell.

The satisfaction of watching him throw a cheque at the presiding Judge, to then have to apologise after a huge lecture was classic and worth every penny.

To you it doest matter to you how much time, effort or money you spend. Its the principle, but for a second try having a look through a players eyes.

Am I going to be in the UK still, would they be able to attend any hearings. What would flights cost?
Am I looking for future work, do I need to focusing on finding it?
Will I have time to take out of next season to fight for last seasons money?
How much future earnings will I miss doing so?
If I do take time to start legal proceedings, and I win and the courts make a ruling in my favour would the Devils just fold/phoenix and leave me even further out of pocket for the court cost, legal fees, flights, loss of earnings or any other cost incurred?

I am sure that many other things would need to be considered in addition.

 

[Dwoods]

It's quite simple really - as we all know, Ice Hockey is so incestuous that no player wants be known as one that takes his employer (current or former) to court etc. It's a tricky balancing act for them and it is all about timing.

They have a very short career and being labelled as someone that takes on "the management" could be detrimental to any further employment.

Either way, it is pretty obvious that the Devils are being miss-managed in the worst possible way - and the demise of our great club is sickening and so sad to see.

 

[chillee]

To you it doest matter to you how much time, effort or money you spend. Its the principle, but for a second try having a look through a players eyes.

Am I going to be in the UK still, would they be able to attend any hearings. What would flights cost?
Am I looking for future work, do I need to focusing on finding it?
Will I have time to take out of next season to fight for last seasons money?
How much future earnings will I miss doing so?
If I do take time to start legal proceedings, and I win and the courts make a ruling in my favour would the Devils just fold/phoenix and leave me even further out of pocket for the court cost, legal fees, flights, loss of earnings or any other cost incurred?

I am sure that many other things would need to be considered in addition.

To take somebody to the County Court is very easy, cheap and quick. Unless the circumstances of Ragan's defence is not as straight forward as the CDRA statement alludes to.

Many people arriving to the UK manage to learn the legalities of our judicial system and others.

Being foreigner is not an excuse or a reason, as I previously wrote, I've been there so l talk from experience and knowing others who have made the change, if your personality type means your that concerned about the implications that much, you'd still be living near your parents dreaming about it, like many do.

There is no guarantee for any player to have their contracts renewed at the end of the term, so all your questions would have been answered or realised before a player moved to the UK. There is very little security in Ice Hockey, last yr proved that, if the player under achieves there out, injured there out, its not new to the sport or any professional sport and as I stated to have gained a place in the Devils squad would have taken some degree of help.

I don't know the EIHL, so no idea if players have advice, help from them, but I'd be shocked if there was no welfare help to players for a host of situations that may occur.

Its easy to write on the forum what I would do, I'm well aware of that and the fact I come across bolshie on here, but if players are reading this, I'd hope it would help encourage them and realise that UK law is very easy for people without help, to take their grievance to court, its one of the easiest in the world and for people like Ragan people need to do it, otherwise he will continue believing he's the dogs cojones.

Encourage, not discourage, discourage is for wimps. Its what made us get out the cave and take on the world. ickle ickle ickle ickle ickle ickle ickle ickle ickle ickle

 

[toy_car_uk]

My experience of small claims, I started proceeding and issued the papers after chasing a debt of several thousand pounds for many months. The small company in question (two brothers) used stalling tactics at every opportunity up to the point they folded the business. I wrote the debt off at this point, as I had moved approx 185 miles away from my home for work and be the stress it was causing both me and my partner was no longer worth it.

My Farther also took a company to the small claims court, and he won. He wasn't awarded costs however. So it actually cost him more in time, effort, lost earnings, travel and accommodation than what was paid out.

I wouldn't discourage anyone from getting their fair dues, but the courts are not always the best or most effective option.

 

[Sliput]

but the courts are not always the best or most effective option.

What other option is there ?

Dont get me wrong, the players who are owed money have my sympathy and it is disgusting that they have not been paid BUT it is not the fans responsibility to make up the difference. What happens if the fans raise the maonies needed and then Ragan pays them ? If the fans only raise half of whats needed, who gets what ?

As someone on THF has said ( PI manager/helped run Basingstoke) maybe the monies are being held back for a reason,damamge to accommodation etc......

Again, i am not knocking the players or anyones generosity to help them but if Ragan hasnt paid them then apart from taking him to court i am not sure what else they could do.

 

[toy_car_uk]

What other option is there ?

The CDRA have reported that one player has been paid up in full after publicly withdrawing support for the club. This, after they had approached the club numerous times prior to going public.

Dont get me wrong, the players who are owed money have my sympathy and it is disgusting that they have not been paid BUT it is not the fans responsibility to make up the difference.

Not the fans responsibility at all, some will help some will not, its down to the individual to make a personal choice. I made a choice I would not be supporting the team home after the 2013/2014 season unless I saw how things are run improve.

You could say its not the fan responsibility to steward games, sell 50/50 tickets, SOHB, Sponsor shirts/players, provide fantastic services like MNL. Yet we do, An awful lot of good will is been burnt by the club, at a rate far grater than it is generating it.

What happens if the fans raise the maonies needed and then Ragan pays them? If the fans only raise half of whats needed, who gets what ?

Valid points, one was addressed in the original email from the CDRA, ie if Mr Ragan pays up, any monies raised would be donated to a charity. Although I would appreciate grater detail, yet haven't asked the CDRA my self. Probably because I know most of them well enough to hold trust in what they will do to be the right thing.

As someone on THF has said ( PI manager/helped run Basingstoke) maybe the monies are being held back for a reason,damamge to accommodation etc......

One player has already be paid in full after the actions of the CDRA.

Again, i am not knocking the players or anyones generosity to help them but if Ragan hasnt paid them then apart from taking him to court I am not sure what else they could do.

Turn to the Fans for help & support seems to be an option being explored?

 

[Finny]

What happens if the fans raise the maonies needed and then Ragan pays them ?

Keep the money safe for when the same thing happens next summer?

 

[chillee]

My experience of small claims, I started proceeding and issued the papers after chasing a debt of several thousand pounds for many months. The small company in question (two brothers) used stalling tactics at every opportunity up to the point they folded the business. I wrote the debt off at this point, as I had moved approx 185 miles away from my home for work and be the stress it was causing both me and my partner was no longer worth it.

My Farther also took a company to the small claims court, and he won. He wasn't awarded costs however. So it actually cost him more in time, effort, lost earnings, travel and accommodation than what was paid out.

I wouldn't discourage anyone from getting their fair dues, but the courts are not always the best or most effective option.

Which is why I stated a few pages back to use the High Court once Judgement is awarded, they then have further powers to seize assets including property.

The main reason for court at the moment though is so far apart from CDRA statement we have no evidence on which to make a decision.

Ragan has many flaws, I never thought breaking the law would be one of them.