Good post, however I believe that the sustainability of the EIHL and the number of Brit players playing at the highest level is indelibly linked and rightly so. We all want to watch hockey of the highest possible level but I also think we should tie this to developing the game as a whole is this country. Just my opinion though.
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- Thread starter Finny
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Very true. The number of people who tell me they wouldn't watch ice hockey, as it is all imports (or similar sentiments) is quite amazing. To gain credibility, and gain even higher crowds, UK ice hockey need to be able to provide this skill level but with a British flavour, to loose the 'imported' tag.
Also, Team GB success will help market the sport. There is vested interests in improving the GB players whilst also maintaining a level.
Also, Team GB success will help market the sport. There is vested interests in improving the GB players whilst also maintaining a level.
A few points.
In the grand scheme of things Eliteleague pays pennies compared to other leagues across Europe so the standard of Import the league attracts is driven by the prices the clubs can pay. In a nutshell if the Imports govern the quality of the league then the standard you get is the level of Import you can attract which currently isn't particularly high. If we're all agreed that the clubs are pretty much at the limit of the expenditure they can afford then the Eliteleague has to all intensive purposes reached its full potential as far as playing standard goes.
So how does it improve.
UK players will for whatever reasons like to play in the UK and so to my mind if you wish to improve the EIHL you actually have to work on improving the UK playing standard so they can raise the standard of the league. If you have a league where the UK players are then taking leading roles within the league I would hazard a guess that interest in the league would grow and the finances behind it may improve. Imporved finances means better Imports. League moves up a level. The GB players are forced to improve again and hence the circle of improvement goes on until the league reaches a new natural standard that is elevated a few levels and GB team is greatly improved probably offering the sport the greatest exposure to the masses that it will ever get in the UK.
It might just be the standard of Uk hockey isn't actually governed by the Imports but actually the Uk players hence do whatever it takes to make them better and bring in the new up and comers and get them playing up a level as soon as possible not rely on an increase in Import players to do it.
In the grand scheme of things Eliteleague pays pennies compared to other leagues across Europe so the standard of Import the league attracts is driven by the prices the clubs can pay. In a nutshell if the Imports govern the quality of the league then the standard you get is the level of Import you can attract which currently isn't particularly high. If we're all agreed that the clubs are pretty much at the limit of the expenditure they can afford then the Eliteleague has to all intensive purposes reached its full potential as far as playing standard goes.
So how does it improve.
UK players will for whatever reasons like to play in the UK and so to my mind if you wish to improve the EIHL you actually have to work on improving the UK playing standard so they can raise the standard of the league. If you have a league where the UK players are then taking leading roles within the league I would hazard a guess that interest in the league would grow and the finances behind it may improve. Imporved finances means better Imports. League moves up a level. The GB players are forced to improve again and hence the circle of improvement goes on until the league reaches a new natural standard that is elevated a few levels and GB team is greatly improved probably offering the sport the greatest exposure to the masses that it will ever get in the UK.
It might just be the standard of Uk hockey isn't actually governed by the Imports but actually the Uk players hence do whatever it takes to make them better and bring in the new up and comers and get them playing up a level as soon as possible not rely on an increase in Import players to do it.
But isnt that fixing the roof before you have even laid the foundations?
leagues like Denmark and Germany havent gotten better and produced NHL standard players because they worked on their top league, they worked on the bottom and the top looked after itself.
the EIHA should be worrying abotu these issues more, not the EIHL. Without the Junior development becoming better than it is (although i would never knock the good work done by systems around the country, i feel they do their best with what they have.) then the standard of British player isnt going to get better than it currently is imo.
The way I see it is that the Import Brit balance may well be cyclical, as, the level of Import that we are attracting is at least in part governing the level of the Brit that can get a spot on the top 3 lines, but also may restrict the Brits in the EIHL from often improving past this point.
However that doesn't mean we wont get more Brits at this standard and as we do, I agree, interest will rise, finances and sustainability will improve. Then more money can be spent, Import Standards will rise and this should bring the Brits standards up too.
EIHL NEEDS Brits that can play at this level in each team and teams NEED to see local players making it in the local EIHL team, I never meant to suggest other wise. Local talent is vital to the success of teams within the local community and if the opportunities for Brits ever fell below the level they are at presently I think the EIHL would definately be going the wrong way.
However my point really was that this is only part of the equation and that senior teams in the top league are not the way to develop players.
Other aspects including the number of teams, the level of Hockey and the star imports (Like Brad) are equally important and in my view the league needs each bit, in order to be successful.
Current Import levels are as high right now as I would ever be happy with, my personal choice for a number that we should try to attain would be 9 imports (a level that would ensure Brits playing on a top or second line) and 10 sustainable teams, but even though that might sound relatively modest, it is far more Brits than are currently available.
So maybe I should have said that EIHL League itself is a Show League and is not developmental, but that it does have a role in ensuring that the Brits come through and it should have structures in place for developmental leagues like the ENL and/or Junior structures.
Clearly the Devils have this in place and a pretty good record on bringing through its local talent.
However that doesn't mean we wont get more Brits at this standard and as we do, I agree, interest will rise, finances and sustainability will improve. Then more money can be spent, Import Standards will rise and this should bring the Brits standards up too.
EIHL NEEDS Brits that can play at this level in each team and teams NEED to see local players making it in the local EIHL team, I never meant to suggest other wise. Local talent is vital to the success of teams within the local community and if the opportunities for Brits ever fell below the level they are at presently I think the EIHL would definately be going the wrong way.
However my point really was that this is only part of the equation and that senior teams in the top league are not the way to develop players.
Other aspects including the number of teams, the level of Hockey and the star imports (Like Brad) are equally important and in my view the league needs each bit, in order to be successful.
Current Import levels are as high right now as I would ever be happy with, my personal choice for a number that we should try to attain would be 9 imports (a level that would ensure Brits playing on a top or second line) and 10 sustainable teams, but even though that might sound relatively modest, it is far more Brits than are currently available.
So maybe I should have said that EIHL League itself is a Show League and is not developmental, but that it does have a role in ensuring that the Brits come through and it should have structures in place for developmental leagues like the ENL and/or Junior structures.
Clearly the Devils have this in place and a pretty good record on bringing through its local talent.
Oh dont get me wrong i am in favour of keeping the British players in the top league, But i dont beleive it is the EIHL's responsability to develop them.
I beleive with better junior development then Brits that have flourished in the EIHL could have gone on to do better than they have.
MArk Richardson earleir in the year said he trained for an hour a week, 2 if he was lucky when he was younger. But he said he had an excellent coach. if the EIHA had mroe teeth and some proper clout around the country, then guys like Mark Richardson would have got more than 1 hour a week, and might have even had better/more coaches to work with then who knows where he could have gone?
the EIHL should always be looking to improve on its commitment to British players, but the EIHA should be the ones forumulating a plan to develop them. There are some fantastic volounteers around the country who put in tonnes of time into junior systems, you only have to look at guys like Symmonds and Davies and Hayes to see that. But i often feel the EIHA doesnt have a system in place to support them.
So yes in short i would never advocate another ISL and the EIHL should play its part in tandem with the EIHA not in place of it.
Thread starter
#49
Unfortunately the facts are that British Ice Hockey got the biggest crowds during the ISL era when there were hardly any brits in the league. I'm certainly not saying we should go back to those days, but you can't argue with the fact that some fans do want to watch as high a level of hockey as possible and aren't that bothered about how many brits are playing.
I would like to see more brits in the league, but I don't think we should drop the standard of the league to accomodate brits who just aren't good enough.
If I read your post correctly I think you are suggesting that to improve the overall quality of the league then you need to drop the quality of the league first. But for how long?
The EIHL appear to have found a level which is sustainable for most teams. It would appear we have around 50 brits who are good enough to play at that level. In an 8 team league thats around 6 a team and so 10 imports are needed.
In a 10 team league that is 5 a team and so the import limit has been risen to 11. A couple of those brits have left the league and rumours going around that a couple of the lower talented brits have upped their asking price. Whether that is true or not, the EIHL have decided to increase competitivity in the league by allowing the bottom 3 teams and 2 new teams an extra import. Hopefully within the next 2 seasons we will see more brits come through and we will be able to drop the import limit again.
I would like to see more brits in the league, but I don't think we should drop the standard of the league to accomodate brits who just aren't good enough.
If I read your post correctly I think you are suggesting that to improve the overall quality of the league then you need to drop the quality of the league first. But for how long?
The EIHL appear to have found a level which is sustainable for most teams. It would appear we have around 50 brits who are good enough to play at that level. In an 8 team league thats around 6 a team and so 10 imports are needed.
In a 10 team league that is 5 a team and so the import limit has been risen to 11. A couple of those brits have left the league and rumours going around that a couple of the lower talented brits have upped their asking price. Whether that is true or not, the EIHL have decided to increase competitivity in the league by allowing the bottom 3 teams and 2 new teams an extra import. Hopefully within the next 2 seasons we will see more brits come through and we will be able to drop the import limit again.
Agree, we all want to watch the highest level of hockey possible and maybe its true that when the ISL was in place the crowds were probably the bigest, However we are talking about long term sustainability and not just a short term fix (and I mean in both actual and literal terms).
Let me make an analogy. China are not great at football - however they have loads of money. If we took the premier league to china and they paid for all the top european players to play in their league the crowds would be enormous, record breaking. Demand would be through the roof. But would that be good for football in China? My guess is not. The number of Chinnesse players playing would be minimal and the national team would not really develop. In the long term, when the initial "wow" factor fell away I think crowds would gradually drop and it would be difficult to again attract the top players. Now this is an extreme example of what you are suggesting is good for UK ice hockey.
I agree (just) that the import levels for this season are about right, however the aim should surely be to lower that and increase the number of Brit players. I would accept a lower level of hockey for a few years to increase the number of brits playing at the top level because I believe the sustainability of the game and most importantly the appeal are linked to the interest generated by home grown players.
Let me make an analogy. China are not great at football - however they have loads of money. If we took the premier league to china and they paid for all the top european players to play in their league the crowds would be enormous, record breaking. Demand would be through the roof. But would that be good for football in China? My guess is not. The number of Chinnesse players playing would be minimal and the national team would not really develop. In the long term, when the initial "wow" factor fell away I think crowds would gradually drop and it would be difficult to again attract the top players. Now this is an extreme example of what you are suggesting is good for UK ice hockey.
I agree (just) that the import levels for this season are about right, however the aim should surely be to lower that and increase the number of Brit players. I would accept a lower level of hockey for a few years to increase the number of brits playing at the top level because I believe the sustainability of the game and most importantly the appeal are linked to the interest generated by home grown players.
The only area I am really disagreeing with anyone on is dropping the standard of the EIHL from where it is now, as lower of standards will lower crowds even if it raises the number of Brits I believe.
Hockey in the EIHL needs to be sustainable at the level is has found and develop its product from here. I understand the reasons for wanting to offer more opportunities, but that can be done more effectively in tandem with lower leagues and better development structures alongside more teams looking for talent than by dropping import numbers now.
As Finny says, ticket sales suggest that people want to see the best Hockey they can and when standards drop, even temporarily, or numbers of teams reduce they fall away.
Hockey in the UK is too fragile as it is, I dont think we can change the formula again.
Hockey in the EIHL needs to be sustainable at the level is has found and develop its product from here. I understand the reasons for wanting to offer more opportunities, but that can be done more effectively in tandem with lower leagues and better development structures alongside more teams looking for talent than by dropping import numbers now.
As Finny says, ticket sales suggest that people want to see the best Hockey they can and when standards drop, even temporarily, or numbers of teams reduce they fall away.
Hockey in the UK is too fragile as it is, I dont think we can change the formula again.
100% agree, we need the Star Brits they are vital and we need them to keep coming, but the Big name Imports are the ones that often sell the team in the Media, Brad, Ivan, Shannon or even McIver, not the Brits.
The ISL shows that these are the guys the crowds come to see and the casual fans identify with.
The balance between the two is all important.
The ISL shows that these are the guys the crowds come to see and the casual fans identify with.
The balance between the two is all important.
Thread starter
#56
If more home grown players = more fans, why aren't the EPL and ENL teams getting bigger crowds than the EIHL teams?
It would appear that this level is sustainable for the teams in the league. Attendances are on the up - why would that be risked by dropping the standard?
We had a lot of people complaining on here when we had the suggestion the wage budget was being cut. A couple of whom said they wouldn't be getting season tickets.
I don't remember anyone saying "Oh great - that means we will be able to play more brits".
It would appear that this level is sustainable for the teams in the league. Attendances are on the up - why would that be risked by dropping the standard?
We had a lot of people complaining on here when we had the suggestion the wage budget was being cut. A couple of whom said they wouldn't be getting season tickets.
I don't remember anyone saying "Oh great - that means we will be able to play more brits".
For once it seems that everyone is actually arguing the same point, but from slightly different tacks.
For me, this league needs to be an 8 or 9 import league. Gives the balance of development/progression and standard. But, for that to take place we need 4 or 5 more Brits who are (at least) as good as our current bog standard imports (per team). So, 40 or 50 more Brits. That is half of the EPL rosters...if they are good enough.
So, what needs to be put in place is a continuum. The EIHA should be progressing players through the lower leagues, junior development programs and even learn to play schemes. The EIHL shouldn't be a place for British players to develop, but to hone. The ENL and then EPL should be the development.
I agree with most - the way to get the fans in is to have a decent on ice product (although I wonder about the marketing of the EPL rather than the quality). Better the Brits, the better lower we can have import limits.
If the EIHL, IHS (or whatever the Scottish governing body is calling itself), IHUK, EIHL and everyone else worked together, we could get a plan together to get there. Better quality Brits will mean a better quality EPL and ENL - and therefore make these leagues more viable.
This sport needs better Brits to survive. To get better Brits they need to play at higher levels. To play at higher standards, they need to play with the better Brits and imports.
What always strikes me, if we had thought like this in the ISL days - we could have everything in place already. Instead most of the running of Ice Hockey in this country feels decided political and amateur.
Lecture ends :lol: (bottle of wine in full effect).
For me, this league needs to be an 8 or 9 import league. Gives the balance of development/progression and standard. But, for that to take place we need 4 or 5 more Brits who are (at least) as good as our current bog standard imports (per team). So, 40 or 50 more Brits. That is half of the EPL rosters...if they are good enough.
So, what needs to be put in place is a continuum. The EIHA should be progressing players through the lower leagues, junior development programs and even learn to play schemes. The EIHL shouldn't be a place for British players to develop, but to hone. The ENL and then EPL should be the development.
I agree with most - the way to get the fans in is to have a decent on ice product (although I wonder about the marketing of the EPL rather than the quality). Better the Brits, the better lower we can have import limits.
If the EIHL, IHS (or whatever the Scottish governing body is calling itself), IHUK, EIHL and everyone else worked together, we could get a plan together to get there. Better quality Brits will mean a better quality EPL and ENL - and therefore make these leagues more viable.
This sport needs better Brits to survive. To get better Brits they need to play at higher levels. To play at higher standards, they need to play with the better Brits and imports.
What always strikes me, if we had thought like this in the ISL days - we could have everything in place already. Instead most of the running of Ice Hockey in this country feels decided political and amateur.
Lecture ends :lol: (bottle of wine in full effect).