News/Gossip from Vipers Forum last night

[Finny]

For those that don't read THF, the Vipers held a fans forum last night and the management announced a couple of interesting points:

-Dundee and Braehead accepted into Elite this year, other teams looking to join in next couple of years.

-Cardiff, Coventry, Sheffield, Belfast, Nottingham to have 11 imports this season.
-Braehead, Dundee, Edinburgh, Hull, Newcastle to have 12 imports this season.

-IHUK fully behind soon to be confirmed plans to open up Work Permit system to allow NCAA etc players into UK. Greatly opens up pool of available talent.

-Challenge Cup will be split into a north and south group of 5 teams each. The north group games will double up as league games.

-Playoff format will be 1v8, 2v7, etc

Not impressed with the return to the stupid playoff system which totally devalues the competition. Glad that our CC games don't double up as league games, though it's still an undesirable format.

Quite surprised they are splitting the import limit again, though it should allow the league to keep the same high standard we had last season and perhaps stop some of the 'standard' brits asking for silly money.
Encouraging too that there are other teams interested in joining in future seasons.

 

[Ger-Devils]

Caps/ vipers can't afford 10 imports let alone 12! Hopefully more teams come in as stated.

 

[HC42]

12 Imports may be to keep costs down! (and the quality up).
Its not always more expensive to play with an extra import if the top Brits are pricing themselves too high and the pool of less talented Brit talent isn't worth paying the money on that you could spend on a better import player.

 

[nmase20]

Now on the devils website with official announcement from EIHL:

http://www.cardiffdevils.com/newsheadline.aspx?cpid=779

 

[Finny]

It would also appear to confirm that you can sign more than the limit but only play 11 (or 12) in any one game.

 

[Mooney#16]

Only in the Eliteleague. To call this a professional league is an absolute joke.

Where else in the world would you accept teams into a league and then change the rules to suit them. This is heading straight down the superleague route again and we know where that will end up. They have become so obsessed with trying to get the highest possible playing standard on the Ice that money and British players are now becoming secondary issues.

If you ever really want the standard of Ice Hockey in the Uk to reach its natural standing within world hockey then you should be reducing the number of Imports in the league not increasing it. Drip feeding more Brits into the league each year to cover slots as others improve is how the game improves not drive all the Brits into the EPL and stop Brits improving by filling the third line spots with imports. At the end of the day the Devils had Tylor on the third because they started with Lyle in net. If a team wants depth on the third in the shape of an import then make them take a punt on Craze as a starter not up the import limit to suit. That benefits no one.

Even the expansion teams in the NHL have to suck for the first few years. Its down to them to promote themselves, work with local talent and try to progress themselves over time. Its not down to a league to accept them and then change the rules to make them instantly competitive by increasing import numbers. That simply weakens the UK game overall as those aren't players you can build a long term league around.

Oh and am I the only one who actually thinks these new teams being added is to the detriment of the Devils. All i can see is that the Devils have just incurred a massive rather un needed overhead for the additional travel expences that if its not compensated by an increased amount of home games to recoup gate money they will actually be financially worse off for this league expansion.

To make these mistakes once I could excuse but to continually make them is simply ridiculous and as said at the beginning highly un professional.

 

[Jones72]

Only in the Eliteleague. To call this a professional league is an absolute joke.

Where else in the world would you accept teams into a league and then change the rules to suit them. This is heading straight down the superleague route again and we know where that will end up. They have become so obsessed with trying to get the highest possible playing standard on the Ice that money and British players are now becoming secondary issues.

If you ever really want the standard of Ice Hockey in the Uk to reach its natural standing within world hockey then you should be reducing the number of Imports in the league not increasing it. Drip feeding more Brits into the league each year to cover slots as others improve is how the game improves not drive all the Brits into the EPL and stop Brits improving by filling the third line spots with imports. At the end of the day the Devils had Tylor on the third because they started with Lyle in net. If a team wants depth on the third in the shape of an import then make them take a punt on Craze as a starter not up the import limit to suit. That benefits no one.

Even the expansion teams in the NHL have to suck for the first few years. Its down to them to promote themselves, work with local talent and try to progress themselves over time. Its not down to a league to accept them and then change the rules to make them instantly competitive by increasing import numbers. That simply weakens the UK game overall as those aren't players you can build a long term league around.

Oh and am I the only one who actually thinks these new teams being added is to the detriment of the Devils. All i can see is that the Devils have just incurred a massive rather un needed overhead for the additional travel expences that if its not compensated by an increased amount of home games to recoup gate money they will actually be financially worse off for this league expansion.

To make these mistakes once I could excuse but to continually make them is simply ridiculous and as said at the beginning highly un professional.

Fair points raised, however as in all such cases it's not always black-and-white.

Brits with the appropriate level of skill are commanding wages beyond their capabilities (if other sources are to be believed). A comparably skilled import could be brought in for less money. By allowing 12 imports, I guess the league are thinking that they are in fact removing the 'over a barrell' situation that clubs could find themselves in with the sudden increased demand for Brits and the smaller pool of suitably qualified players.

As for the inclusion of the new teams being financially detrimental to the Devils, well that all depends on how the games are scheduled so remains to be seen. If games are scheduled such that there are two away games up in Scotland in a weekend, then in fact this could result in a cost saving overall due to the reduced fuel costs (compared to additional trips there and back to Newcastle Notingham or Sheffield).

Personally I welcome the chance to watch two new teams, though I'm sure it won't be completely problem free.

 

[maccab5]

Werent the teams outside the top 4 allowed to sign an extra import last year?
Sure i heard something to do with wage cap issues the season before looks to be what has happened here again, just with cardiff being included this time too.

 

[Finny]

The addition of Braehead and Dundee might well see an increase in our travelling expenses. However, their addition should see the EIHL become more stable over the next couple of seasons.

We only need to look back 12 months to last summer when Basingstoke and Manchester dropped out and we were down to 8 teams. We've had suggestions that Edinburgh and Newcastle weren't happy and were looking to drop out too. The EIHL has been a bit precarious of late.

An 8 team league wouldn't have survived for long. Just look at the ISL - it's standard was fantastic but the fans started to drift away because it all got too repetitive and familiar. I'm pretty sure that would have happened again if we were playing everyone 5 or 6 times a season at home. I don't think Newcastle and Edinburgh would have lasted more than another season up north on their own - and it would only have been a matter of time before they finally got a Norther Premier League going with 5 imports. And that would have been the end of the EIHL.

Now though we have a 10 team EIHL with rumours of other clubs possibly joining. The possibility of a rival league being setup and temp teams away is now all but gone. If Fife want to play non-amateur hockey their only alternative is the EIHL. Manchester might find that they will be able to step back up sooner than planned.

The increase in import numbers is not ideal, but probably necessary. If we had kept it at 10 then the league would have needed to find another 10 brits of a good enough standard. There just aren't enough of them to do that - which would have meant the overall standard of the league would have gone down. And the lesser teams would almost certainly not have been as competitive as they were last season.

I thought the standard of hockey last season was really good and enjoyed the fact that even the bottom teams could beat the top teams on their day. Attendances were overall going up but this might have stopped if we dropped the standard.

Hopefully over the next couple of season we will start to see more young brits come through and we will be able to drop the import level again.

 

[Finny]

Werent the teams outside the top 4 allowed to sign an extra import last year?
Sure i heard something to do with wage cap issues the season before looks to be what has happened here again, just with cardiff being included this time too.

That was two seasons ago. It was suggested that the top 4 teams wouldn't be allowed to sign an 11th import as punishment for breaking the wagecap. But if you did sign 11 imports then you were only allowed to spend up to a lower wagecap.

I think it was brought in to allow the lesser sides to sign a cheap import instead of an expensive brit of lesser talent. Unfortunately that was the summer Zoom went bust so bringing in the extra import actually turned out to be more expensive than planned.

Overall though I think it is a good idea. The top teams can sign a brit that is import standard e.g. Lyle, Richardson, Hill, Shields, Tait, Weaver, Clarke etc. The lesser teams can't sign an import-standard brit without offering massive wages to tempt them there - so this allows them to get a similar standard for a cheaper price.

 

[Mooney#16]

I see your point but the Brits who have the league over a barrel have earned the right to be there by constantly improving and posting performances which have dictated that they should earn good money. It's this financial reward that should serve as the basis of driving the standards with up and coming Brits knowing that the potential is there to earn good money but you've got to work at it as hard as possible mirroring the required levels to be an import player. To say the Brits aren't worth there money is a little unfair as you've got Sheilds (top point scorer) Weaver (top offensive D man) Murphy and Lyle (statistically top two netminders) who all demonstrate Brits are more than capable of being Elite players in the league and should be paid as such against their foreign peers.

The lanes of improvement have to be kept open to help long term improvement and you need as many British players playing at the highest possible standard to aid this. Players will never reach the required level if not given the chance to do so. If it means the third lines are weakened then so be it but to go down the road of filling them with poor imports is highly detrimental to UK hockey as a whole. Of course the clubs will want to field the highest possible standard team for the money and will use all available resources but from the greater perspective of helping improve Uk hockey as a whole you have to take that option away from them and force them to use the Brits. The standard may suffer short term but long term it is far more beneficial.

It's no coincidence that during the Superleague Days the GB program was absolutely shot to ribbons with a lack of players to step up to international level.

 

[Mooney#16]

Finny.

You just have to ask yourself one question though. Which part do you want. Long term stability for UK Ice Hockey or the highest possible standard. The two don't go hand in hand. ISL proved that.

 

[frank]

I think we have to look at football & rugby to see there international sides failing to win at top level due to very few british players playing after all we all would like to see GB playing at the highest level which means more british players playing top level here

 

[Finny]

I see your point but the Brits who have the league over a barrel have earned the right to be there by constantly improving and posting performances which have dictated that they should earn good money. It's this financial reward that should serve as the basis of driving the standards with up and coming Brits knowing that the potential is there to earn good money but you've got to work at it as hard as possible mirroring the required levels to be an import player. To say the Brits aren't worth there money is a little unfair as you've got Sheilds (top point scorer) Weaver (top offensive D man) Murphy and Lyle (statistically top two netminders) who all demonstrate Brits are more than capable of being Elite players in the league and should be paid as such against their foreign peers.

But it's not those players who are causing the problem. Shields, Murphy, Lyle and co are all import quality players who could go to other leagues if they wanted to and try to get more money. In fact, I think all those players have. Now though they are back in the UK and earning a deserved wage equivalent to a top import because that is how good they are.

The problem is the brits of a lower standard. Those that are probably not good enough to make the GB team, are only good enough to play 3rd line hockey and aren't really good enough to play in foreign leagues.
However, they then start demanding bigger wages knowing that the EIHL teams need another couple of brits. They aren't worth these wages and if they went to a foreign league and asked for it they would be laughed all the way home.

For example a 3rd line brit may be worth around £200 a week. He starts demanding £500 a week which is probably the same as a top brit. If all the brits group together and set this as a basic rate for all of them (which happens) then the EIHL teams have to pay them that else go down to 2 lines.
Alternatively they could sign a CHL import for £300. Saving the club £200 a week which could go on a better quality of first line import.

And, don't forget that just because the import limit is set to 12 for some teams it means they have to use. If that brit then comes back and says he is willing to pay for £200, the club sign him instead and save £100.

 

[Jones72]

I see your point but the Brits who have the league over a barrel have earned the right to be there by constantly improving and posting performances which have dictated that they should earn good money. It's this financial reward that should serve as the basis of driving the standards with up and coming Brits knowing that the potential is there to earn good money but you've got to work at it as hard as possible mirroring the required levels to be an import player. To say the Brits aren't worth there money is a little unfair as you've got Sheilds (top point scorer) Weaver (top offensive D man) Murphy and Lyle (statistically top two netminders) who all demonstrate Brits are more than capable of being Elite players in the league and should be paid as such against their foreign peers.

But it's not those players who are causing the problem. Shields, Murphy, Lyle and co are all import quality players who could go to other leagues if they wanted to and try to get more money. In fact, I think all those players have. Now though they are back in the UK and earning a deserved wage equivalent to a top import because that is how good they are.

The problem is the brits of a lower standard. Those that are probably not good enough to make the GB team, are only good enough to play 3rd line hockey and aren't really good enough to play in foreign leagues.
However, they then start demanding bigger wages knowing that the EIHL teams need another couple of brits. They aren't worth these wages and if they went to a foreign league and asked for it they would be laughed all the way home.

For example a 3rd line brit may be worth around £200 a week. He starts demanding £500 a week which is probably the same as a top brit. If all the brits group together and set this as a basic rate for all of them (which happens) then the EIHL teams have to pay them that else go down to 2 lines.
Alternatively they could sign a CHL import for £300. Saving the club £200 a week which could go on a better quality of first line import.

And, don't forget that just because the import limit is set to 12 for some teams it means they have to use. If that brit then comes back and says he is willing to pay for £200, the club sign him instead and save £100.

My point exactly.

 

[Finny]

Finny.

You just have to ask yourself one question though. Which part do you want. Long term stability for UK Ice Hockey or the highest possible standard. The two don't go hand in hand. ISL proved that.

ISL proved that you can't spend more than can afford. The same could happen in all british league.

People assume more imports = financial disaster. That's only if you start bringing in too many expensive brits.
You could sign an entire team of CHL players with no brits and it would probably be cheaper than the budget last season.

I want to see the highest standard of hockey that my team can afford. That can still be achieved along with long term stability of UK Ice Hockey as long as they only spend within their means.

 

[Finny]

I think we have to look at football & rugby to see there international sides failing to win at top level due to very few british players playing after all we all would like to see GB playing at the highest level which means more british players playing top level here

And of course Spain and Italy have had no international football success due to the high number of 'imports' in their top leagues.

Oh.

 

[Soundwave1]

I think we have to look at football & rugby to see there international sides failing to win at top level due to very few british players playing after all we all would like to see GB playing at the highest level which means more british players playing top level here

Slightly off topic sorry, but I don't think you can equate the Welsh rugby teams' failings to not enough Welsh playing as they have a cap. It's more or less right IMO or our teams wouldn't compete. (you could lay some blame at the Ospreys door for hoarding our international prospects though)

It's certainly true to a degree for english rugby though, but that's also down to the turgid style of play adopted by most premiership teams.

Back closer to the main topic - I'd be surprised if the long-term aspiration of the league is to have 11 and 12 imports (perhaps even 10), but stability has to be the main focus over the next few years and that means a standard of hockey that is appealing to the public and also competitive performances from the new teams. (these additional imports will likely be as good as most GB players and cost a lot less - helping the new/smaller clubs)

Without the league maintaining this level there won't be any hope of a GB team remaining competitive because the UK players won't have any opportunity to play in a superior quality environment. (unless they go overseas) We'd just end up with loads of mediocre british players who'd get spanked at international level.

Of course a balance has to be struck with giving UK players the opportunity to improve (Phil Hill is an example of how a player can respond to the challenge), but I do think they have the balance about right at the moment.

We should give it 2-3 years and see where we are then IMO

 

[HC42]

Admitting 2 new teams should be good for the league and will certainly be nice for the fans, however it was bound to affect the structure of the league too, including import numbers.

The change in Import numbers is what keeps the standard of the league consistent and so it comes as no surprise to me that when the EIHL has admitted 2 new teams without having the number of Brits available of a high enough standard to get a regular shift without making those teams uncompetitive, import numbers have increased.

This year lots of Brits, especially those who don't get regular shifts, have also moved to the EPL, Farmer has gone from Steelers today and this makes the talent pool even shallower. However I tend to think its good that certain players drop down to the EPL and it can be good for the EIHL in the future.

It makes sense to play regularly at a lower standard before hopefully stepping back up to the EIHL (and beyond) in future years. The EPL will hopefully improve the depth of Brit players and therefore the depth of Brits able to play in the EIHL. However, right now, we still have a very exclusive group of Top Brits able to command high wages and the EIHL also has to balance import numbers to offset this and keep the standards consistent year on year.
If the EPL produces talent that can step up in future years then the import limits can begin to reduce, but it is important that this doesn't happen to soon as the standard of the Hockey in the EIHLalso needs to remain consistent as well in order to keep many fans on board.

However, as long as this is what happens i.e. Import numbers are in direct proportion to, the number of teams in the league and the number of Brits that will get regular spots on the top 3 lines and we don't just have a Show league, with no development opportunities what so ever, or conversely a lowering of standards from reducing imports to early, then I think we are on the right lines.

 

[Finny]

That's only if you start bringing in too many expensive brits.

Too late to edit, but that should have been too many expensive imports.