Cardiff Devils ENL division 2 Trials
- Thread starter Cudd
- Start date
There will be enough players to form an Under 18s, with a few of the 16s playing up. The problem is that that there is not enough ice time to accomodate both ENL2 and 18s. ENL2 won't be folded as this money subsidises the players ENL1 are giving a free ride to, hence the lack of an 18s team and reluctance to set it up.
With regard earlier posts about 16s playing up at ENL2 level, surely these youngsters would benefit even further by playing ENL1? It is all well and good saying they need to force their way into the team, but the chances of doing that are extremely limitied if ENL1 are actively recruiting players with proven EPL/ENL experience from other teams. Instead of asking for hockey CVs from various players, leave the spot on the roster open for the Monaghan/Powell/Palmer/Dunn etc and let them develop with ENL1. They will be playing at a far higher standard than ENL2, and undoubtably become better players for it. Take Ben Davies as an example. Half a season playing with Matt Elich, against far superior opposition has improved him no end. You put the current promising youngsters into ENL1, playing against the likes of Cornish etc and they will improve greatly. If they are left in ENL2, there will surely be a cap of how much they can improve if the players they are playing with or against are no better than themselves.
Why are the 16s being made to try out for the right to play ENL2? If it is part of junior development, the guys due to make the step-up should automatically move up with out the need to prove themselves. Any excess players should be cut from ENL2 if they don't have the potential to one day play for the Devils.
I am remaining annonomous as I do not want my child to be discriminated against, but I've spoken in length to the people involved in the Junior development programme. Regarding my post about ENL2 being "glorified Rec", this is the phrase we hear at every trial and game we attend (certainly in the south) and without naming names for risk of offending individuals, this is certainly the case in Cardiff.
This was never intended as a dig at the people putting effort into coaching/managing ENL2 as they give up a lot of spare time. It was simply to act as any eye-opener to the state of our current junior system and the way it is currently moving. How many times in the last 5 years have we have national finalist/winner at any age? Compare this to the likes of Swindon, Guildford, Bracknell, Nottingham, Hull, Sheffield, Telford and also compare how they run their second ENL teams. Oh wait, they don't have 2 ENL teams, just thriving junior development programmes.
With regard earlier posts about 16s playing up at ENL2 level, surely these youngsters would benefit even further by playing ENL1? It is all well and good saying they need to force their way into the team, but the chances of doing that are extremely limitied if ENL1 are actively recruiting players with proven EPL/ENL experience from other teams. Instead of asking for hockey CVs from various players, leave the spot on the roster open for the Monaghan/Powell/Palmer/Dunn etc and let them develop with ENL1. They will be playing at a far higher standard than ENL2, and undoubtably become better players for it. Take Ben Davies as an example. Half a season playing with Matt Elich, against far superior opposition has improved him no end. You put the current promising youngsters into ENL1, playing against the likes of Cornish etc and they will improve greatly. If they are left in ENL2, there will surely be a cap of how much they can improve if the players they are playing with or against are no better than themselves.
Why are the 16s being made to try out for the right to play ENL2? If it is part of junior development, the guys due to make the step-up should automatically move up with out the need to prove themselves. Any excess players should be cut from ENL2 if they don't have the potential to one day play for the Devils.
I am remaining annonomous as I do not want my child to be discriminated against, but I've spoken in length to the people involved in the Junior development programme. Regarding my post about ENL2 being "glorified Rec", this is the phrase we hear at every trial and game we attend (certainly in the south) and without naming names for risk of offending individuals, this is certainly the case in Cardiff.
This was never intended as a dig at the people putting effort into coaching/managing ENL2 as they give up a lot of spare time. It was simply to act as any eye-opener to the state of our current junior system and the way it is currently moving. How many times in the last 5 years have we have national finalist/winner at any age? Compare this to the likes of Swindon, Guildford, Bracknell, Nottingham, Hull, Sheffield, Telford and also compare how they run their second ENL teams. Oh wait, they don't have 2 ENL teams, just thriving junior development programmes.
So is the argument here basically the same as me suggesting I should complain to Dave Jones for signing better players than me at Cardiff City and so stopping me from developing further?
Sorry, but it seems to me that some parents are suggesting that the standard of hockey in ENL1 and ENL 2 is too high for their children (not that their children aren't good enough) and so the standard should be lowered.
Will we in a couple of seasons time have these same posters back complaining that there are too many imports in the EIHL team stopping their sons get into the senior team - and so which should drop the import level so they can make it. And also stop anyone better than their children from being signed too?
Sorry, but it seems to me that some parents are suggesting that the standard of hockey in ENL1 and ENL 2 is too high for their children (not that their children aren't good enough) and so the standard should be lowered.
Will we in a couple of seasons time have these same posters back complaining that there are too many imports in the EIHL team stopping their sons get into the senior team - and so which should drop the import level so they can make it. And also stop anyone better than their children from being signed too?
As a member of the Cardiff Titans, with friends in ENL2, I feel the abuse aimed at the Satan’s is very disrespectful. I am qualified to comment on this as I came through the junior system from the age of 8 finishing at EPL with Cardiff Rage. I was fortunate enough to captain teams involving players like Stevie Lyle, Phil Hill and Jonathan Phillips and played at England and conference level from 12s through to 19s.
First off, the coaching staff in Cardiff are some of the most dedicated and talented coaches that you will find anywhere in the UK. Robin Monaghan, Jamie Elson and Andy Edwards have worked closely with the Cardiff Titans in the past and brought the standard of our club to the pinnacle of UK Rec hockey. They put huge amounts of time and effort into helping the juniors becoming better players and people. Their coaching records stand up and above many junior coaches in the country and Cardiff is lucky to have them. I am sure the same can be said about all the other coaches in our teams from 10s to ENL1.
Secondly, the term “Glorified Rec” is a slur on the Cardiff Titans and Rec hockey in general. The standard of the Titans as Scott Monaghan said is better than most people would think. Would we beat ENL2? That is not even an issue as the two teams are friendly with each other, with each team looking to get different experiences out of hockey. ENL2 is about training regularly with good coaching and playing every weekend in a strong league. Rec is about playing when you can due to work/family priorities, without the total commitment to your team every Saturday and Sunday. The standard of rec in general is pretty good with loads of ex-pros in the league including Paul Heavey, Paul and David Hand, Chris Bailey, AJ Kelham, Phil Lee, Andre Malo, Ron Shudra , Darryl Lipsey recently played for Swindon and ENL1s Alan Armour and Ricky Deacon have featured in the Rec Division too. I am sure these guys would give a glowing reference on the British rec hockey scene.
There is some fantastic talent in ENL2 that are surely knocking on the door on ENL1 and I am sure you’ll see the next Ben Davies pretty soon. I do agree that ENL1 should be looking at the guys coming through the juniors rather than signing the best player available as this is a junior development team. If the likes of Jeff Monaghan, Jordan Powell etc are to have a serious crack at making the Devils they need to be given the chance to play a regular shift at ENL1, not play second fiddle to a new signing that will bring short term rewards.
From my experience, Lyle was given a chance as a 14 year old at the highest level when it would have been far easier and of less risk to sign an established netminder to back up Jason Wood. The same can be said of Jona and Phil. They were given a chance at BNL and EPL with the Rage and rose to the challenge. Had these guys been held back, or their spots filled with the best signings available as Finny is suggesting, they may not have turned out to be the players that they are today.
First off, the coaching staff in Cardiff are some of the most dedicated and talented coaches that you will find anywhere in the UK. Robin Monaghan, Jamie Elson and Andy Edwards have worked closely with the Cardiff Titans in the past and brought the standard of our club to the pinnacle of UK Rec hockey. They put huge amounts of time and effort into helping the juniors becoming better players and people. Their coaching records stand up and above many junior coaches in the country and Cardiff is lucky to have them. I am sure the same can be said about all the other coaches in our teams from 10s to ENL1.
Secondly, the term “Glorified Rec” is a slur on the Cardiff Titans and Rec hockey in general. The standard of the Titans as Scott Monaghan said is better than most people would think. Would we beat ENL2? That is not even an issue as the two teams are friendly with each other, with each team looking to get different experiences out of hockey. ENL2 is about training regularly with good coaching and playing every weekend in a strong league. Rec is about playing when you can due to work/family priorities, without the total commitment to your team every Saturday and Sunday. The standard of rec in general is pretty good with loads of ex-pros in the league including Paul Heavey, Paul and David Hand, Chris Bailey, AJ Kelham, Phil Lee, Andre Malo, Ron Shudra , Darryl Lipsey recently played for Swindon and ENL1s Alan Armour and Ricky Deacon have featured in the Rec Division too. I am sure these guys would give a glowing reference on the British rec hockey scene.
There is some fantastic talent in ENL2 that are surely knocking on the door on ENL1 and I am sure you’ll see the next Ben Davies pretty soon. I do agree that ENL1 should be looking at the guys coming through the juniors rather than signing the best player available as this is a junior development team. If the likes of Jeff Monaghan, Jordan Powell etc are to have a serious crack at making the Devils they need to be given the chance to play a regular shift at ENL1, not play second fiddle to a new signing that will bring short term rewards.
From my experience, Lyle was given a chance as a 14 year old at the highest level when it would have been far easier and of less risk to sign an established netminder to back up Jason Wood. The same can be said of Jona and Phil. They were given a chance at BNL and EPL with the Rage and rose to the challenge. Had these guys been held back, or their spots filled with the best signings available as Finny is suggesting, they may not have turned out to be the players that they are today.
Natural selection springs to my mind. Not all junior players will be good enough to play at Elite League - if progression was guaranteed then the league would be Distinctly Average and not Elite at all.
I believe that if you have gone through the youth system then by 16 you will probably have stood out already if you are good enough.
To my mind, guaranteeing places will not encourage the competitive edge that good players need to develop in order to play at the higher levels. The need to make the grade is hugely important and keeps a team fresh.
I have only been watching the Devils for one season, but have enjoyed a number of ENL games, both 1 and 2 and have thoroughly enjoyed them. I have seen a number of occasions where younger players have pushed their luck but the older players have shown respect to their age and put them in their places without hurting them. Accidents can happen at any level, and I don't see throwing the boys in with the men as a particular problem based upon the games I have seen.
I also think that earlier comments regarding ENL2 have been hugely disprectful, and wonder whether they are fuelled by a sneaking suspicion that the kids simply won't make the grade. Whatever level they eventually aspire to, you should still be proud of them even if it not the level that you had envisaged.
I believe that if you have gone through the youth system then by 16 you will probably have stood out already if you are good enough.
To my mind, guaranteeing places will not encourage the competitive edge that good players need to develop in order to play at the higher levels. The need to make the grade is hugely important and keeps a team fresh.
I have only been watching the Devils for one season, but have enjoyed a number of ENL games, both 1 and 2 and have thoroughly enjoyed them. I have seen a number of occasions where younger players have pushed their luck but the older players have shown respect to their age and put them in their places without hurting them. Accidents can happen at any level, and I don't see throwing the boys in with the men as a particular problem based upon the games I have seen.
I also think that earlier comments regarding ENL2 have been hugely disprectful, and wonder whether they are fuelled by a sneaking suspicion that the kids simply won't make the grade. Whatever level they eventually aspire to, you should still be proud of them even if it not the level that you had envisaged.
Do you know, that is a superb comment. Absolutely spot on. One of the saddest things I have witnessed in a number of sports over the years,is the number of parents who try to play their sports through their children.I have seen so many instances in junior football,rugby and hockey where the parents are obviously far keener on the sport than their child is.Encourage them. Support them and let them find their own level.If they are good enough in their chosen sport they will get the opportunities.
My son played in the same junior football team as Aaron Ramsay but didn't get selected for the Cardiff City academy. Natural selection or should I have pushed my son harder? As an aside, the local football team ran sides upto U16.If Steve wanted to carry on playing football he would have had to play in adult leagues and made his choices accordingly.Parallels with hockey there.
My son played in the same junior football team as Aaron Ramsay but didn't get selected for the Cardiff City academy. Natural selection or should I have pushed my son harder? As an aside, the local football team ran sides upto U16.If Steve wanted to carry on playing football he would have had to play in adult leagues and made his choices accordingly.Parallels with hockey there.
Hockeydad, whilst I understand your reluctance to put your name to the comments possibly for fear of a face to face confrontation I cannot believe anyone on here would approach your son regarding comments YOU have made! Although you have praised the coaches and managers of enl2 what have you said about the players, I'm sure quite a few will have read your comments deriding their team and the efforts they all put in to play the sport they love, i have no doubt some of the younger players will feel this a bit more than the experienced ones!
As Kip said, I too have seen many youngsters forced to play this game purely for the satisfaction of their parent/s.
Well said Hibbsy.
Hockeydad, I wonder how many summer cup tournament games you have seen over the years, I have seen many and quite a few that were more enjoyable than some elite games.
I feel that if you have a problem with the way junior hockey is going then please air your views to the right people and hopefully everyone will benefit from it, however, in my opinion deriding a team as you have is not the way forward.
As Kip said, I too have seen many youngsters forced to play this game purely for the satisfaction of their parent/s.
Well said Hibbsy.
Hockeydad, I wonder how many summer cup tournament games you have seen over the years, I have seen many and quite a few that were more enjoyable than some elite games.
I feel that if you have a problem with the way junior hockey is going then please air your views to the right people and hopefully everyone will benefit from it, however, in my opinion deriding a team as you have is not the way forward.
I think a few of the triallists now realise the step up to ENL2 standard is tad higher than a glorified rec team. 
I had a chat with one of the lads beforehand and he had a great attitude. He came along to find out where he stood ability wise and to find out how much harder he had to work to reach the required standard.
It's a shame there were very few youngsters out of the U16's there but perhaps they have exam commitments at the moment.Hopefully they will turn up at the next trial. The couple of youngsters that did turn up showed some nice touches and can only benefit from being on the ice with experienced adults.
I had a chat with one of the lads beforehand and he had a great attitude. He came along to find out where he stood ability wise and to find out how much harder he had to work to reach the required standard.It's a shame there were very few youngsters out of the U16's there but perhaps they have exam commitments at the moment.Hopefully they will turn up at the next trial. The couple of youngsters that did turn up showed some nice touches and can only benefit from being on the ice with experienced adults.
Kipper said:
I think a few of the triallists now realise the step up to ENL2 standard is tad higher than a glorified rec team. I had a chat with one of the lads beforehand and he had a great attitude. He came along to find out where he stood ability wise and to find out how much harder he had to work to reach the required standard.
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I had a chat with one of the lads beforehand and he had a great attitude. He came along to find out where he stood ability wise and to find out how much harder he had to work to reach the required standard..
I can't believe the comment posted regarding the ENL 2 team, surely parents and other players should be encouraging players who want to play in Cardiff? Would Hockeydad like his son's team being slated by someone hiding behind an alias? I know a lot of the ENL lads and know how hard they worked last season and even as soon as the season finished they were already planning off-ice training sessions to ensure they are on top of their game in time for next season (I was approached by a number to write training programmes, diet plans and for hockey specific off-ice training exercises). These slurs are completely without justification. The ENL 2 team (as far as I was aware) was set up to give MORE players the chance to play a higher standard of hockey, ENL 2 is a big step up from junior development, not only with the age difference, but the skill level is very good too.
What would people rather; their child being given a chance at playing ENL in ENL 2 with a group of guys who's ultimate goal is to play ENL 1 then for the Devils, or to have one ENL team so the chances of playing good quality (ENL) hockey are reduced even further? The reason Sheffield, Nottingham etc do so well is because they have more rinks, they import players and they are far bigger cities than Cardiff, meaning a larger population and essentially being more attractive to prospective signings. I know players who play for Manchester, Sheffield and Nottingham at ENL 1 and its no suprise that these areas have thriving inline hockey leagues along with having the benefit of additional rinks which increases the training opportunities for players across ALL ages. Also, in Manchester, Nottingham and Sheffield, there is NO natural progression from U18 to ENL, only the best players from the Jr Development teams get selected to play ENL.
To compare REC and ENL is ridiculous, as someone posted previously, there are players in teams such as the titans who would probably make ENL 1 or ENL 2 but choose to play REC hockey as they have families and jobs and cannot give those teams the full commitment they deserve, some players play for FUN or use it as a reason to get out of the house and socialise with their friends while learning new skills and developing fitness, surely that is the whole idea of sport?
I have worked with elite athletes in both hockey and professional boxing and if a player is good enough, his age will not matter, he will be noticed by the coaches and be put in the relevant team, that is the purpose of trials. The name Ben Davies keeps popping up; a fantastic player who I believe played a few games for the Devils at age 16/17. Did Ben's dad tell Gerard Adams to stop signing players like Brad Voth and Mike Hartwick so his son could have a better chance? PI doubt it very much, Ben probably worked his butt off in training (along side studying in school) and waited for his time to prove himself. No player in any sport has a god given right to be in a team just because they are old enough and I for one sure as hell would not be happy if I thought the only reason I was in a team was because I was the right age.
If Hockeydad's son trials and gets in, I wish him (the son) all the best, but to slag off guys who are trying hard to improve and get into ENL 1 or who play Rec hockey is disgusting. The fact that some of the guys who played ENL2 played Rec the season before is down to the fact that there was NOWHERE else for them to play! It was either play Rec or not play at all. Players play because they love the game so stop slagging people off and put your energy into developing the sport or promoting the sport or anything positive that will help hockey in Cardiff and South Wales!
Dom Browne
What would people rather; their child being given a chance at playing ENL in ENL 2 with a group of guys who's ultimate goal is to play ENL 1 then for the Devils, or to have one ENL team so the chances of playing good quality (ENL) hockey are reduced even further? The reason Sheffield, Nottingham etc do so well is because they have more rinks, they import players and they are far bigger cities than Cardiff, meaning a larger population and essentially being more attractive to prospective signings. I know players who play for Manchester, Sheffield and Nottingham at ENL 1 and its no suprise that these areas have thriving inline hockey leagues along with having the benefit of additional rinks which increases the training opportunities for players across ALL ages. Also, in Manchester, Nottingham and Sheffield, there is NO natural progression from U18 to ENL, only the best players from the Jr Development teams get selected to play ENL.
To compare REC and ENL is ridiculous, as someone posted previously, there are players in teams such as the titans who would probably make ENL 1 or ENL 2 but choose to play REC hockey as they have families and jobs and cannot give those teams the full commitment they deserve, some players play for FUN or use it as a reason to get out of the house and socialise with their friends while learning new skills and developing fitness, surely that is the whole idea of sport?
I have worked with elite athletes in both hockey and professional boxing and if a player is good enough, his age will not matter, he will be noticed by the coaches and be put in the relevant team, that is the purpose of trials. The name Ben Davies keeps popping up; a fantastic player who I believe played a few games for the Devils at age 16/17. Did Ben's dad tell Gerard Adams to stop signing players like Brad Voth and Mike Hartwick so his son could have a better chance? PI doubt it very much, Ben probably worked his butt off in training (along side studying in school) and waited for his time to prove himself. No player in any sport has a god given right to be in a team just because they are old enough and I for one sure as hell would not be happy if I thought the only reason I was in a team was because I was the right age.
If Hockeydad's son trials and gets in, I wish him (the son) all the best, but to slag off guys who are trying hard to improve and get into ENL 1 or who play Rec hockey is disgusting. The fact that some of the guys who played ENL2 played Rec the season before is down to the fact that there was NOWHERE else for them to play! It was either play Rec or not play at all. Players play because they love the game so stop slagging people off and put your energy into developing the sport or promoting the sport or anything positive that will help hockey in Cardiff and South Wales!
Dom Browne
