Pride: Presumably I have missed....

[Lloyd]

Right, I didn't plan on commenting on this subject. But having read some of these quite frankly offensive comments, I feel I must give my 2 pence worth.

Pride Nights or similar are a good thing in my opinion. Its worth remembering that while events like this certainly add good PR for the club, it goes further than that. The whole concepts of 'Pride Games' in Cardiff, started with the players if I recall correctly. I'm almost certain I've heard a story on Wallys podcast where there was an incident in the league and Devils players came together to create the idea that is pride night.

You may be thinking, I'm not gay, bisexual or other... why should I care?

Short answer is, you don't have to. No one is forcing you to purchase the rainbow jersey or to do anything other than watch hockey - something I'd hope you enjoy if you're attending games. But these events show that the 'hockey family' is welcoming to everyone and people can be free to feel comfortable as who they are when attending games - something that can't be said in some other sports.

Ultimately, homosexuality is still criminalised in 70 countries worldwide. So while some members of this forum may pass it off as not being an issue, quite frankly you're miss informed. Even closer to home, 1in5 gay people in Wales has been the victim of a homophobic hate crime in the last 36 months.

It depends who you ask, but there's over 1 million people in the UK who are 'out' and many many more who are gay, bisexual or other but are yet to come out. These events go along way to show that cultures are changing and it is perfectly normal and acceptable to be different.

Speaking first hand as someone who is gay and played for the junior devils and a host of football teams such as Cardiff City growing up - these events didn't exist and I struggled for years thinking there was something wrong with me and I needed to change. Only when I hit 18 did I begin to accept myself - something I'm still doing.

My point is - if I as a young devils fan had turned up to a game and seen my hero's demonstrating their acceptance and support for who I was and showing it was perfectly cool to be whatever you are, it would've helped me I'm sure. So even if just one person, old or young, is able to begin to accept themselves or feel valued as a result of these events, then they're worth it. Then hopefully in the future we'll see more athletes who are comfortable and confident to express themselves as who they are! And for those of you who don't care - just enjoy the hockey.

If you've gotten this far - I'm impressed. Thank you for reading and discourse is always welcome!

 

[Hedd Wyn John]

I’ve no idea if I’m out of touch with all this but is the pride topic not more about changing mindsets, challenging bias be it conscious or unconscious and developing inclusive environments where people are free to be themselves and express themselves without fear of repercussion.

It isn’t about instantly demonstrating change and engagement via air lifting minorities into positions. The ideal world scenario should always be a meritocracy where people are judged on there ability over any key characteristic that can introduce bias. However there are many socio economic and cultural issues that need breaking down to allow people to reach their potential. That to me is what pride is about. Overtly challenging some of these issues and letting people in communities know they are valued.

However this is a long term project that will need to span multiple generations to create meaningful change. Some people ain’t for changing and put simply you have to wait for them to leave positions of influence and replace them with people with lower bias.

In a nutshell then just because there aren’t that many LGBT+, black or Asian players for various reasons doesn’t mean that Pride is failing. It’s a long term cultural change that you potentially won’t see truly significant change in for 10 + years. But to reach the top of the game those players have to be good enough otherwise we go into a whole other debate about positive discrimination.

How do we know there aren't many LGBT players?

Just because players don't announce their sexuality or gender identity doesn't mean the Pride campaign is failing. These issues are very personal and people often keep these matters private. That doesn't mean Pride has failed.

As for the fact that there are very few black or Asian players, that is a separate issue to Pride.

Pride is a LGBT campaign - its not about ethnicity.

Though personally I think having players from a more diverse background is a good thing.

 

[Mazzoak]

Lloyd great post, thank you for your input and being so frank.

U.K. hockey still has a long way to go, Zack is the first professional hockey player to go public. Yet last year a month before Pride he was the victim of an homophobic incident at a game.

https://www.skysports.com/more-spor...ckeys-zach-sullivan-after-homophobia-incident

This is a quote from the article.

“While the player who abused him could not have known that Sullivan was bisexual, Sullivan hoped the referees’ report from that night would lead to action. But that hasn’t been the case. He still hasn’t received an update from the EIHL on disciplinary action taken against the player. “I think it was an opportunity for them to make an example and say this kind of language is not acceptable in our league,” he said.” I don’t know the reasons but it was disheartening and frustrating to see.”


My point about Pride is yes it promotes a sense of inclusion, only if it’s backed up by actual inclusion and true support. The EIHL hasn’t taken action, that is far more telling than holding a Pride night. I look forward to a day when no person needs to come out or hide, a person can be who they are without fear, no need for token gestures.
I‘d bet a ton of money that if a Cardiff Player entered the bar at the IAW, kissed his partner in front of everyone on Pride night they’d be several fans not so inclusive.

 

[Mazzoak]

How do we know there aren't many LGBT players?

Just because players don't announce their sexuality or gender identity doesn't mean the Pride campaign is failing. These issues are very personal and people often keep these matters private. That doesn't mean Pride has failed.

As for the fact that there are very few black or Asian players, that is a separate issue to Pride.

Pride is a LGBT campaign - its not about ethnicity.

Though personally I think having players from a more diverse background is a good thing.

There is a Transgender player in the NIHL who Zack has played with. It’s not about announcing your sexuality, it’s about living, being who you are without having to hide. A player walking hand in hand with their partner in the City, doing everything any heterosexual person does when in a relationship or friendship in public.

 

[matbur]

Some interesting posts here and insightful to read your own personal take on it Lloyd.

Without wishing to detract from Pride being the main topic here, I do take issue the 'Hockey is for everyone' ethos that the league is quick to align with.

When we had a national 24 hour media blackout campaign throughout sport for equality, the Elite League was the only professional league in the country (as far as I'm aware) that chose not to partake in it. I felt the sheer arrogance of that spoke volumes at the time.

The overwhelming majority of the crowd is white, quite how they determine it's 'for everyone', I don't know. The lack of ethnic diversity is highly noticeable on the play-off weekends too, which is representation of all the team's fanbases.The league has a lot of work to do before it and the fans can boldly proclaim to be for everyone.

Personally, I believe the Devils engage with pride with sincerity and I'm sure other EIHL clubs do too, although I do sadly wonder whether this is really the case with lots of brands and organisations etc.

Apologies if I'm off topic here.

 

[Rob Batch]

I am pleased there is a coversation on this, that was my intention. My angst was aimed firstly at the NHL followed by the EIHL. Pride night would be fine if accompanied by messaging informing fans and general public of issues faced and associated problems that the LGBTQ community have on a daily basis. Information, education, plan of action would be of help to everyone. I included black and asian players because 'hockey' as a sport were shouting from the rooftops that 'hockey' was for everyone and diverse. Clearly that is not the case and the numbers prove it. NHL 3% EIHL same. Change needs to happen and it needs to start at the very top of the NHL then trickle down to all leagues. More action is needed across the board in my 'nut job' opinion. Thank you lloyd for your input, it does help.

 

[Lloyd]

It's great to be able to discuss it openly. There's no shame in lack of understanding, only when people choose to be ignorant is where it becomes offensive.

Ultimately, I hope one day 'Pride' games aren't required anymore. Not because of lack of interest but because the hockey, and indeed wider community have moved onto a point where a persons sexuality has no baring on their ability to play hockey or for you to be kind to them.

Whenever I've spoken to team mates about it, I've always said its my worst nightmare to be treated differently as a result of it. I'm not particularly touchy about the topic and welcome chirps from team mates and others, as long as they're good natured. Only where they're deliberately rude will I tale any offence. Ultimately, what I get up to in my private relationships should have no baring on how I'm perceived as a hockey player or just a mate. Likewise with heterosexual team mates, I'm not bothered what you get up to with your significant other as long as you're a decent person, we can all get along.

Some have touched on the lack of representation with gay players in professional sport and I agree its an issue, but one that will take time to work out. I'm certain there will be players from the NHL down to the Elite League who are yet to come out for numerous reasons, or even those who may have wives and girlfriends who aren't comfortable accepting themselves, sadly.

As mentioned, change takes time. But this show of acceptance goes a long way. Growing up playing team sports, the term 'gay' was used in locker rooms as a derogatory term. I can remember hearing frequently "Oh that's gay" in response to something negative. By having role models such as hockey players showing their support and how its not a bad thing, I'd hope this culture will change and as we see more LGBT role models and tolerance that young people change mindsets.

Ultimately, this may mean more LGBT players progressing through the ranks and making it to the stage where they can again promote change and be a role model - ultimately this begins to snowball.

I‘d bet a ton of money that if a Cardiff Player entered the bar at the IAW, kissed his partner in front of everyone on Pride night they’d be several fans not so inclusive.

This was a really interesting point, and I think it demonstrates the responsibility we all hold. If some individuals were to show their distaste at this, I'd hope that they would be made to know their outdated views aren't welcome in hockey (or anywhere else for that matter) and in doing this you're helping to promote inclusivity. No one likes too much PDA (public demonstrations of affection) and I for one would call my friends out for being too 'soppy' in public, gay or straight.

But there should be no shame in doing the above and I'm confident that as mentioned that enough devils fans would call out this hateful behaviour and make it clear these are not what the club, nor fans will tolerate in our building.

 

[Mazzoak]

I’d like to believe people would ostracise any individual or group, unfortunately there are a people who will simply walk by in the hope someone else will step up. The club has issues regarding people drinking too much and becoming anti social, I’m not sure all the crowd falls into the “Devils Fan Ethos”.

 

[BostonBart22]

Pride night has been arranged v storm on 26th Feb, attendance could be affected as wales v England kick off 16.45 same night, can we have an 8pm face off just this once or maybe coverage in the bar before the game .

 

[Kevlar68]

I doubt it will change face off time as it's at Twickenham, if it was at Principality there may have been a slight case for change.
The bar could make a little extra cash from opening early with just 2 bar staff on but then that would mean security and door staff in early to check tickets for doors open at 16.15 ready for kick off 16.45.
I myself would open and get it advertised now. Game would be over 30 mins before 7pm face off.

 

[BostonBart22]

In the past , devils have avoided the rugby Internationals with our fixtures but not this season it was the same with autumn Internationals, maybe an oversight on the devils part..

 

[Wannabe2]

Wales v England always a big clash, but Wales can’t win the Grand Slam, can’t win the Triple Crown so why disrupt everything for Jack all. Yes we want to see it, but not at any cost.

 

[Hedd Wyn John]

Wales are gonna get thumped so it's no big deal to me.