EIHL Management re-structure

[jester]

I havent mentioned Belfast or Braehead mate its not my point.

He has run on a budget that he can afford with two backroom staff to promote the team, even though many claim notts are spending this and that its all fan speculation, Notts put out an exciting team which may not win but does enough to draw in the punters. Just because you have a nice arena dosent guarentee success as the panthers (much to my delight) continue to prove.

 

[Skippy]

I havent mentioned Belfast or Braehead mate its not my point.

He has run on a budget that he can afford with two backroom staff to promote the team, even though many claim notts are spending this and that its all fan speculation, Notts put out an exciting team which may not win but does enough to draw in the punters. Just because you have a nice arena dosent guarentee success as the panthers (much to my delight) continue to prove.

Your right you didn't bring up Belfast, but I did as I see it as a club that has the right facility and is getting it right something which Brahead appear to be doing as well.

I do agree with you on Nottingham, its a well run club that puts out a good product. But I just think that his comments today are short sighted or at least appear that way today, he may come out tommorrow with something great but the tone of what he's said today leaves me thinking he won't.

 

[DevilDom]

I couldn't agree with skippy more.

It is a really narrow sighted argument to say we should all emulate how the Panthers are run. It is just not possible for many teams currently in the EIHL.

It may be a very defiant message to the Panthers fans but is smells of fear to me. The 3 teams with the most to lose if the EIHL fails are Panthers, Giants and Steelers. All the rest of us can probably play in another league be sustainable and still draw very similar crowds. For those 3 the end of the EIHL probably means the mothballing of their team. I think he really needs to wake up and see the wood for the trees because standing and crowing "i'm alright Jack" will leave him with no one to preach too.

 

[ASHIPP]

I havent mentioned Belfast or Braehead mate its not my point.

He has run on a budget that he can afford with two backroom staff to promote the team, even though many claim notts are spending this and that its all fan speculation, Notts put out an exciting team which may not win but does enough to draw in the punters. Just because you have a nice arena dosent guarentee success as the panthers (much to my delight) continue to prove.

A statement like that might come back to bite you this season.....particularly as the League title is a 3 horse race this year and half a season left to go.

I'd check out their Cup success over recent years......may not be League Champions (yet) but are regular cup winners in Challenge Cup and Playoff competitions.
Something that most other teams have failed to achieve in recent years.

 

[Mooney#16]

Dear Jim.

Please can you fix it for the lottery to build me an arena on my doorstep so I can use it for my ice hockey team to play in.

Lost for words. I want to live in Neil Blacks world. It must smell amazing.

 

[jester]

Dear Jim.

Please can you fix it for the lottery to build me an arena on my doorstep so I can use it for my ice hockey team to play in.

Lost for words. I want to live in Neil Blacks world. It must smell amazing.

Ah dig time, expected better from you TBH, i just dont think Black should be maligned too much as its there to see what he has put into the club and has made them the best followed and most stable club in the EIHL, if he can do it why cant other teams ? If you watched the sky show Kelman admitted the Giants were nearly done when he took over, several years of good management, restructuring and identifying his target audience and sponsers has worked well. What is to stop any team trying this with variations in the regions that they play.
As i said above a great arena dosent mean sucess (maple leafs anyone)

You hold a world record and had good crowds last season playing in the BBT what changed ? and is it fair to blame Black and others that your crowds are down?

 

[devson]

so if cardiff had a 7000 seater arena would they get 6000 people in each week ?
when you went on the win streak did the bbt sell out every game ? if so then it would pay to have a big rink, but if you have a massive arena with an average will you sell out ?

 

[Mooney#16]

All legit arguements granted but every club just can't physically offer the same product to people. If they could granted it all comes down to commercial incompetance on clubs parts.

The unfortunate fact is that in Cardiffs rink there are maybe less than 100 seats where the entire ice surface is visible. The rest have restricted sightlines. To sell a game people want a comfotable seat in a nice arena with some good hockey to watch. Nottingham and Belfast have all three. Most clubs have one possibly two. If they had built there rinks then granted but they have the luck of superior venues. The clubs just all have different trading environments.

My issue is in no way what Black has done with Nottingham. They are a success but it is the drive and holding his ground on league decisions that impacts on all the other clubs and that is where I just cannot agree with the man. He needs to recognize the entire league modal not just Nottinghams and compromise for the leagues benefit. The best scenario will sit somewhere in the middle but his reluctance to budge is as much a noose to the neck of the league as the poor revenues of the smaller clubs.

Lets not beat around the bush. If the Nottingham Arena hadn't been built Nottingham wouldn't be the club they are now and Neil Black wouldn't be involved in hockey. Take his example so far but he had everything on his side. If other clubs were afforded the same they to would be just as successful. The issues at present are not just isolated to clubs. They are league wide and nationwide and he needs to exercise a little more humility in his outlook to allow his club to continue to have a trading environment for which to operate in.

 

[James]

so if cardiff had a 7000 seater arena would they get 6000 people in each week ?

no, but the potential would be there and with a better facility the ability to retain the audience would be higher.

 

[davew]

It must be remembered that the panthers are a rink team, when Black took control in 97 they were still playing out of their old 2800 seat rink. I dont know when the upheavel of the building works started to convert their barn into the NIC started, but they only moved to their new home in 1999.

Black does make much sense, and no one can argue that he has not managed his team economically and that they have still been successful, as they were in the old parliament street rink.

I do think that some other owners should follow his lead, but yes it is possible that his model may not work in it's entirity for all clubs.

 

[Mooney#16]

Little more complex than that. If memory serves I believe the planning was already approved for the NIC when Black purchased them so he knew what he was getting. Why do people fall for purchasing the Devils. The as it happens misguided opinion they will soon have a better rink to play out of which can guarantee a better venue.

He waited his moment and budgetted accordingly granted but it was in the knowledge his golden goose was on its way. And I'd counter they weren't particularly great in that intervening period.

The construction of the arena was alongside the old rink and the practice rink actually sits where the old ice did so the disruption and upheavel was minimised. As I say it all has worked well for him but some was not of his doing. He has made a go of it thats for sure but Neil Black is not the messiah. Some of what he says is good. Some of what he says is bad. Preaching to other clubs by quoting the panthers as a modal is bad. Some business accumin for sure but also a large % of luck. Something other clubs just haven't access to right now.

 

[TheStub]

What he did well was make the team play within its means whilst waiting for the NIC to be built. He then closed out the ISL era with a team that wasn't competitive but entertained.

He was then primed to pump in a bit of cash for the EIHL era starting, and get the crowds in. I'm not sure he'd be happy if the rest of the league did the same. It would mean Nottingham being at one level everyone else at another.

I agree with his premise, but I can't see the fans turning up to watch their team get tanked. The whole league need to take the steps together - lower quality maybe, but competitive and entertaining? Most probably.

The simple fact is the profit he can make in the NIC is probably the same as our entire takings. Sell out both rinks and he'll pocket more over his running costs than we have seats.

I seem to remember break even figures of 1600 tickets in the BBT and 3000 in the NIC.

 

[TheStub]

I also seem to remember someone saying the only team not loosing money being Nottingham.

Is it so hard for Belfast and Sheffield to emulate the Panthers?

Another one - what are ST sales like for teams as a % of capacity, % average attendances and % of break even for all the teams?

I can't imagine Nottingham are doing much better than Cardiff in those measures.

 

[oneill]

so if cardiff had a 7000 seater arena would they get 6000 people in each week ?

no, but the potential would be there and with a better facility the ability to retain the audience would be higher.

What kind of fan base could the Devils get in a new arena.. 1500-2000 is what the tent averages does it not at the minute, say you get a 5000 seater arena what kind of average crowds what Devils fans expect to see 2500, 3000,3500,4000+ ect... Panthers Average nearly 4500 a game, the Giants 3800. Could the Devils bring in that many each week in a new arena..?

 

[jester]

I also seem to remember someone saying the only team not loosing money being Nottingham.

Is it so hard for Belfast and Sheffield to emulate the Panthers?

Another one - what are ST sales like for teams as a % of capacity, % average attendances and % of break even for all the teams?

I can't imagine Nottingham are doing much better than Cardiff in those measures.

I really didn't want to mention Belfast Stub, but as I said when TK took over he had a season to improve the whole GOrg he obviously did enough to convince the owner he had and has improved the giants no end, he mentions this on the sky show I remember him visiting Notts and Coventry to see what they were doing right and adapting it to suit Belfast, which seems to be working at the moment. I have no doubt the bbt restricts the devils but Dudley it would be wise to try to cut your cloth according to budget and explode when you move to your new rink

 

[oneill]

Is it so hard for Belfast and Sheffield to emulate the Panthers?

Giants made a small profit last season, and I would say the crowds are similar this year so I can't see why we don't do the same this season..

 

[Wannabe2]

so if cardiff had a 7000 seater arena would they get 6000 people in each week ?

no, but the potential would be there and with a better facility the ability to retain the audience would be higher.

What kind of fan base could the Devils get in a new arena.. 1500-2000 is what the tent averages does it not at the minute, say you get a 5000 seater arena what kind of average crowds what Devils fans expect to see 2500, 3000,3500,4000+ ect... Panthers Average nearly 4500 a game, the Giants 3800. Could the Devils bring in that many each week in a new arena..?

Our new gaff when it is built will be a 3000 seater, the size of the crowd depends on so much, marketing, whether we are winning, the night experience, profits depend on so much also, whether you have the food and drink etc etc. All we need in Cardiff is a nice facility, once we get that our destiny will be in our hands, and i have a more positive when that happens.

 

[Finny]

Nottingham were very fortunate that they had a brilliant venue for them built in an ideal location at an ideal time.

In the mid-90s there was very little between the two clubs, other than the Devils were more successful on the ice.
Both teams were playing in large rinks and comfortably averaging more than 2000. When the ISL arrived, their crowds went up so they were both selling out most weeks.

At that time, either side could have sold out bigger venues. Unfortunately the Devils arena was delayed and delayed and delayed whilst Nottingham had the NIC built for them out of lottery money.

Nottingham went from strength to strength whilst the Devils couldn't afford ISL hockey in the WNIR and went bust and has still never recovered.

If the Devils had been given an arena in the peak of the ISL, then I think we would have been in the same position as Nottingham. But more successful.

 

[Wannabe2]

Nottinghams arena was also built due to Torvil and Dean who backed the National Ice Centre.

 

[Mooney#16]

Precisely.

The Devils previously had a stand out game night experience within Cardiff. The Rink was in a prime city centre location and people could catch the game after a day out shopping or before going for a night out on the tiles. It catered for so many more people in so many different ways and although flawed in places it was a far better rink.

Now the BBT is essentially a cars drive away for all. People can't have as many beers. The bar is less social. The sight lines are terrible. It is just a whole heartedly dumbed down product and those aren't really Devils organisational faults. Something Neil Black finds it very easy to forget.

People have moved away from the sport due to these issues. Fact is a new Arena goes some way to fixing them. Myself personnally I think 3000 fans to each game is perfectly acheivable in Cardiff. It is waiting to break out again as a hockey market. But until the Rink changes they are capped. They can work hard and get people in but if they can only see half an ice surface will they feel a little short changed and probably not return on a regular basis. It really is rock and hard place stuff.

This is where Blacks opinion is a little galling. He hasn't for the most part faced the adversity the other clubs have but still feels well versed enough to comment and talk down on there business modals. I wonder how he'd feel after a season in there shoes.

The on going survival of the Eliteleague requires co operation and concession and this is where I just can't agree with the man as he just seems to be unprepared to give either. He wants a league model that I just can't see is affordable or acheiveable .