Devils Vs Flames - League - 31st Dec 23 - FO 16:00

[Devil94]

I wasn't able to catch the games this weekend, but from what I have read on here it sounds like as well as outscoring us, Guildford were more physical than us. That would make sense as the games I have seen them over the last few years they have been forechecking and hitting relentlessly. And have been successful at it against us.

I would argue that this is where the NA v European style debate doesn't quite stick. Guildford are the definition of an European team. They are the shortest and the lightest team in the league, but they play hard, they're skilfull and they're quick. And I reckon they overachieve because of this. The argument of European style not working here, well it works pretty well for them.

I think this is the style we should be replicting. And I think it is the style PR is going for, but it hasn't clicked consistently yet. Obviously Dixon is into his 7th year coaching at this level and nearly 20 at Guildford. He's had time to build. PR hasn't had recruitment quite right by the looks of it, but can't be expected to first year at a new club. PR needs years to get this team right and to build his team and identity, that's was Lord did, Keefe, Fox and Dixon has done.

 

[Paul Sullivan]

I don't remember crowing abut beating the Blaze in my post. I said nobody said it was boring as shit.

Nobody likes losing but the team is second only to the best Steelers outfit in at least 12 years who are destroying everyone.

I just don't get why anything less than a physical battle and victory seems to have the torches lit and the pitchforks sharpened.

 

[Hedd Wyn John]

I wasn't able to catch the games this weekend, but from what I have read on here it sounds like as well as outscoring us, Guildford were more physical than us. That would make sense as the games I have seen them over the last few years they have been forechecking and hitting relentlessly. And have been successful at it against us.

I would argue that this is where the NA v European style debate doesn't quite stick. Guildford are the definition of an European team. They are the shortest and the lightest team in the league, but they play hard, they're skilfull and they're quick. And I reckon they overachieve because of this. The argument of European style not working here, well it works pretty well for them.

I think this is the style we should be replicting. And I think it is the style PR is going for, but it hasn't clicked consistently yet. Obviously Dixon is into his 7th year coaching at this level and nearly 20 at Guildford. He's had time to build. PR hasn't had recruitment quite right by the looks of it, but can't be expected to first year at a new club. PR needs years to get this team right and to build his team and identity, that's was Lord did, Keefe, Fox and Dixon has done.

Guildford are a good team and there's no doubt they played very well. They were fast, physical but crucially they had a pretty solid D (unlike us) and they also (unlike us) knew how to screen a goalie and to be clinical in front of the net. All too often which I've said all season (& sound like a broken record) we've encountered a strong D and ended relying too much on shots from the boards or from distance.
Dixon is a good coach and works well with a limited budget. The one time he got a budget to rival the biggest teams (last year) he came close to winning the league. As it stands now though Guildford are in 4th just a couple of points behind us but thats nothing to write home about. We are a team with .645 points percentage. I wouldn't say that's proof itself that we should follow the Guildford style.We finished 4th last year, 3rd the year before & we're playing at that kind of level- if we pull our socks up a 2nd place finish is doable but not if we play like we did these last 2 nights. Upcoming matches against steelers and Belfast will be painful if we don't raise our game.

If we want to look at other teams for inspiration look at what Sheffield are doing right now- they are head & shoulders above everyone else. (Take Sheffield out of the equation and the rest of the league is pretty tight). Sheffield are basically winning almost all their games where everyone else is mostly taking points off each other. They will wrap this league up early if this pattern continues. For other teams to look at inspiration look at what Keefe has done the last few years with Belfast. OK so last year they brought in a lot of players in January but I think this shows how critical recruitment is rather than styles per se. Sheffield aren't really doing much different this year under Fox than in previous years but their recruitment has been phenomenal basically every signing has been on point.
I'll be honest, since Lordo left I don't think our recruitment has been as good. Maybe we just got really lucky with Lordo. We had a top coach & signed a bunch of star players. We managed to put lightning in a bottle & it's hard to do that again.

 

[BostonBart22]

I've been harping on this subject a few times this season, PR needs help fom another coach to join PR and King, , used to have 3 most games previous seasons with franny on board, so why hasn't he been replaced with someone who knows more about coaching rather than king who is a GK coach, look at Belfast last yr 4 coaches , yes 4, most teams got 3 on the bench these days 6 eyes are better than 4 eyes in our case, if it's to do with budget gas a player stealing a wage , PR defo needs help imo. Even now till the end of the season ..just saying

 

[Hedd Wyn John]

I've been harping on this subject a few times this season, PR needs help fom another coach to join PR and King, , used to have 3 most games previous seasons with franny on board, so why hasn't he been replaced with someone who knows more about coaching rather than king who is a GK coach, look at Belfast last yr 4 coaches , yes 4, most teams got 3 on the bench these days 6 eyes are better than 4 eyes in our case, if it's to do with budget gas a player stealing a wage , PR defo needs help imo. Even now till the end of the season ..just saying

I don't think there's the budget for an extra coach, but with someone as experienced as Russell should we really be calling for another one?

I figure Franny was on the bench before because we had inexperienced coaches & it didnt strain the budget. Russell isn't an inexperienced coach, I don't think the issues with the current team are down to having too few coaches on the bench.

 

[BostonBart22]

I don't think there's the budget for an extra coach, but with someone as experienced as Russell should we really be calling for another one?

I figure Franny was on the bench before because we had inexperienced coaches & it didnt strain the budget. Russell isn't an inexperienced coach, I don't think the issues with the current team are down to having too few coaches on the bench.

Just don't think king is bringing anything to the team in his role, only gk coaching, may be just me but we need another assistant coach to help out with different views to oversee things that PR maybe missing.

 

[Hedd Wyn John]

Highlights are up if anyone wants to relive that game.

 

[moggy#9]

Guildford are a good team and there's no doubt they played very well. They were fast, physical but crucially they had a pretty solid D (unlike us) and they also (unlike us) knew how to screen a goalie and to be clinical in front of the net. All too often which I've said all season (& sound like a broken record) we've encountered a strong D and ended relying too much on shots from the boards or from distance.
Dixon is a good coach and works well with a limited budget. The one time he got a budget to rival the biggest teams (last year) he came close to winning the league. As it stands now though Guildford are in 4th just a couple of points behind us but thats nothing to write home about. We are a team with .645 points percentage. I wouldn't say that's proof itself that we should follow the Guildford style.We finished 4th last year, 3rd the year before & we're playing at that kind of level- if we pull our socks up a 2nd place finish is doable but not if we play like we did these last 2 nights. Upcoming matches against steelers and Belfast will be painful if we don't raise our game.

If we want to look at other teams for inspiration look at what Sheffield are doing right now- they are head & shoulders above everyone else. (Take Sheffield out of the equation and the rest of the league is pretty tight). Sheffield are basically winning almost all their games where everyone else is mostly taking points off each other. They will wrap this league up early if this pattern continues. For other teams to look at inspiration look at what Keefe has done the last few years with Belfast. OK so last year they brought in a lot of players in January but I think this shows how critical recruitment is rather than styles per se. Sheffield aren't really doing much different this year under Fox than in previous years but their recruitment has been phenomenal basically every signing has been on point.
I'll be honest, since Lordo left I don't think our recruitment has been as good. Maybe we just got really lucky with Lordo. We had a top coach & signed a bunch of star players. We managed to put lightning in a bottle & it's hard to do that again.

Lordo has certainly been showing his capabilities in the echl this season, and it's great to see his success. Was his great recruitment while he was with us down to his capabilities, or his list of contracts though?

It's been noticeable in the last few seasons how often players and the club have had little knowledge of each other before they arrived. We've heard comments like "I watched video of him", "people I've spoken to say he's good" etc. I'd hoped that PR would bring an untapped reservoir of European talent to our recruiting, but that hasn't happened. Perhaps our real problem is that the list of people in the club's little black book of possible signings have all retired and we're reduced to trusting agents at their word.

We also get the same platitudes from players that they understand the British "no nights off" culture. They don't.

 

[hip check]

I don't remember crowing abut beating the Blaze in my post. I said nobody said it was boring as shit.

Nobody likes losing but the team is second only to the best Steelers outfit in at least 12 years who are destroying everyone.

I just don't get why anything less than a physical battle and victory seems to have the torches lit and the pitchforks sharpened.

I think what a lot of us are saying is that the on ice product is very often a bore fest. People have said on here that they can take a defeat or a win but want to see some character and effort from the players.
It wouldn't bother me in the least if there were no fights in our games but surely good clean solid hitting and getting in the other teams faces and showing you care is a minimum requirement us fans should expect from our players.
If we had a dozen Brandt's and Davies's in our team we wouldn't win anything but we'd probably go home after the game and think that we had our money's worth and watched a team that's given everything.
We've got 6'4" players that play like 5'8" players and 5'8" players that play like 6'4" players.

 

[E.D.S.]

I don't remember crowing abut beating the Blaze in my post. I said nobody said it was boring as shit.

Nobody likes losing but the team is second only to the best Steelers outfit in at least 12 years who are destroying everyone.

I just don't get why anything less than a physical battle and victory seems to have the torches lit and the pitchforks sharpened.

I get the point you’re trying to make Paul but I’d give some folks on here a little more credit. Yes there are a few who post how great we are when we win and then do a full 180 when we will lose but there’s also a nucleus of posters who are more considered and took the Coventry games for what it was. We beat what was in front of us. Our style suits Coventry. Scoring 7 goals is unlikely to be dull but it still wasn’t the type of hockey a number of people on here are asking to see. Some would prefer a physical battle and a one goal win over a 7 nil contactless drubbing. Those posters have been saying pretty much the same thing all season about our style and the concerns they have. To use just the Coventry game as an example of people not claiming it was dull even though we won, would be doing them a disservice. Like wise when you get an owner sarcastically posting “typical Devils” after a win does pretty much the same thing.

In my opinion, our brand of hockey these last 3 seasons has been dull. To someone else and the rest of the packed out arena it may be the best ever but it’s merely a matter of taste and opinion. Sticking 15 goals on Coventry doesn’t change that for me.

 

[Martynwo]

I was embarrassed by the way Sandford got hit against the boards and he had to cross check him and then got the retaliation pen, then Bowns got hit. These are our 2 best players and not ONE person on the ice took action, why?
There needs to be a consequence, teams know there is not so will carry on taking liberties, what will it take to change, a serious injury ?? I hope not.
We are going to get bullied and will continue to do so

Apparently we were Good in the 1st and OK in the 2nd !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OK ????? OK is not good enough sorry, not for my money

 

[Kevin roog]

I’ve been to 6 games the last 9 or whatever days, Sheffield could have been 10 nil , like an exhibition game, Coventry was good home and away , Guildford away was the most frustrating, 3.2 up and Crawford gets outworked and the puck is stripped off him and typically just slashes the guy twice and they score on the power play, illdiscipline is killing us, sly little trips and slashes

 

[kettdevil1]

I get the point you’re trying to make Paul but I’d give some folks on here a little more credit. Yes there are a few who post how great we are when we win and then do a full 180 when we will lose but there’s also a nucleus of posters who are more considered and took the Coventry games for what it was. We beat what was in front of us. Our style suits Coventry. Scoring 7 goals is unlikely to be dull but it still wasn’t the type of hockey a number of people on here are asking to see. Some would prefer a physical battle and a one goal win over a 7 nil contactless drubbing. Those posters have been saying pretty much the same thing all season about our style and the concerns they have. To use just the Coventry game as an example of people not claiming it was dull even though we won, would be doing them a disservice. Like wise when you get an owner sarcastically posting “typical Devils” after a win does pretty much the same thing.

In my opinion, our brand of hockey these last 3 seasons has been dull. To someone else and the rest of the packed out arena it may be the best ever but it’s merely a matter of taste and opinion. Sticking 15 goals on Coventry doesn’t change that for me.

To be honest I have avoided getting involved because I have other things on at the moment but this is a really interesting post. I suppose my question is what do people want and which team do we look at (if any) for inspiration? The fact is that we are 2nd in the league, some distance behind the leaders but ahead of everyone else. We don't know what will happen in the next few months so we can't speculate but looking at the various options do we want to go down the following routes:

Guildford style hockey - which is a more extreme version of what we have been trying. It's fast, absolutely exhilarating when it is working but they haven't won anything and their fans are constantly moaning about a lack of physicality.
Sheffield style - they have stuck with Fox despite constant collapses at Christmas and massive meltdowns from their fanbase and (at the moment) it is working. We have had three coaches in three years and history will suggest that is not a way to win a league.
Rock 'em, Sock 'em hockey - we lead the league last year in fights by some distance but the complaint was still we lacked physicality. Also (and I am really loathe to pick on him because he brings so much to the team and I am a big supporter of him) but have a look at how many goals we concede when Brandt goes for the big hit and is out of position. Sticking up for teammates is fine but we know physicality is a risky strategy as it leads to suspensions, injuries and if tried against certain teams you get picked apart.
Belfast style - if you are not winning, get the chequebook out. Players see the club as a way of collecting an honour and then moving on. Have a look at the number of imports who stay for 3+ seasons and it is minimal which means the connection between team and players is not what it is elsewhere. You get trophies but you also get meltdowns when it goes wrong...... which has been fun over the last few months

So, I don't know what the answer is, in some posts there is a desire to return to BBT hockey but that is clearly not possible for multiple reasons and frankly don't people remember the Burge/Ragan years?? So.... what's the answer?

Finally (and I accept this might be me) but I am constantly amazed by people posting about how they were bored, the hockey has been dull for XX years and they don't want to go any more. Clearly that is entirely an individual's call but.... if you are finding it boring then why are you going? Some games are good, some aren't, that's life but it is very rare for me to go to a game and not find something of interest. If I was bored I wouldn't go. As mentioned, entirely your own choice but amazed that people post this and always want to know what the second choice you rejected for your evening was...

 

[Hedd Wyn John]

Lordo has certainly been showing his capabilities in the echl this season, and it's great to see his success. Was his great recruitment while he was with us down to his capabilities, or his list of contracts though?

It's been noticeable in the last few seasons how often players and the club have had little knowledge of each other before they arrived. We've heard comments like "I watched video of him", "people I've spoken to say he's good" etc. I'd hoped that PR would bring an untapped reservoir of European talent to our recruiting, but that hasn't happened. Perhaps our real problem is that the list of people in the club's little black book of possible signings have all retired and we're reduced to trusting agents at their word.

We also get the same platitudes from players that they understand the British "no nights off" culture. They don't.

Interesting point but without going through each year's roster and drawing a big spider diagram of who got recruited each year based off who knew who, I don't know if that's accurate. Personally I think recruitment based on who knows who will only take a team so far, especially when you bring in older players who might have played with someone a few years prior. That's always a risk.

 

[ASHIPP]

I’m going to games purely because I have a season ticket. When I’m at the games, I find myself highly bored at the on ice product. Do I think we can win anything? No. I see no identity or style of play. What I’ve seen recently is nothing short of pathetic.

Certain players need to look themselves in the mirror but Russell also has to take some of the blame, he’s the coach. He needs to fire a rocket up their arses and get them playing ASAP otherwise we’re in for another trophy less season.

Moving onto the style of play, we play like absolute pussies. No physicality, not much speed, certain players are simply not putting in the effort and are going missing during the big games. I don’t need to name them as that should be fairly obvious. Changes needed, but do Kelman and the owners have the balls to do so? I don’t think so - we have brought back too many from last year. Guess none of this matters though as merch sales are up…

Rather than changing our logo as part of a ‘rebrand’, the focus should’ve been putting together a team that is actually capable of winning the league and recruiting players who grab games by the scruff of the neck when needed. Give Steelers the league now, they have recruited very well and have the correct mentality that every game is a game 7 in this league. No nights off.

The Steelers are the benchmark of doing everything right to mount a League challenge.

Our Club is in a dilemma....its financial survival depends upon decent sponsorship and maximum capacity receipts in a small arena. This includes the bids to host Continental Cup Final and Team GB qualifiers this season. Its all to heighten the profile of the Club and bring in revenue. That is the main mission of Todd, his Team, the Owners, any business.....sustainability and investment.
Of course, it's a checks and balances operation....the other side of the mission is the on-ice product. And whilst many of the newer fans and non-fans who are attracted through the Arena doors will be forgiving of an unèntertaining team, that's simply not the case for many other people I.e. the Devils' season ticket supporters and those who truly love the sport and will attend every game
It's chicken and egg for the Club ....increase the revenue, invest in the Club. Maybe we just have to be a bit more patient with the post-COVID rebuild of the Club, accepting the disruption of 3 different style coaches in 3 years, hoping that in year 2 that PR will be able to recruit a team that fulfills true Devils' style and qualities. If it doesn't happen, many disgruntled people will simply stop investing their hard earned cash in season tickets, merchandise, walkups etc.

Or do we hope that there is something that can be done right now to improve the on-ice product. Not talking about winning every game because the League has changed this year. But creating and reviving those values and the style that has defined the Cardiff Devils' teams in the past. And we have players who have played on some of those very teams and will know what it takes...Martin,Bowns, Richardson, Davies,Duggan,Batch. Bringing in other players now may not fix the problem and it may not even be possible under current transfer regulations (Devils have already brought in 3 new players before Xmas).

 

[jimmy snels]

I don't remember crowing abut beating the Blaze in my post. I said nobody said it was boring as shit.

Nobody likes losing but the team is second only to the best Steelers outfit in at least 12 years who are destroying everyone.

I just don't get why anything less than a physical battle and victory seems to have the torches lit and the pitchforks sharpened.

You were happy with the physical battle shown by the devils in last night's game again then?

 

[Earnie]

If we win the Continental Cup then all is forgiven for this season!
(however last night’s performance does not make that look likely. Aggression and passion needs to be added to the mix)

 

[E.D.S.]

Finally (and I accept this might be me) but I am constantly amazed by people posting about how they were bored, the hockey has been dull for XX years and they don't want to go any more. Clearly that is entirely an individual's call but.... if you are finding it boring then why are you going? Some games are good, some aren't, that's life but it is very rare for me to go to a game and not find something of interest. If I was bored I wouldn't go. As mentioned, entirely your own choice but amazed that people post this and always want to know what the second choice you rejected for your evening was...

Agree but plenty of reasons why people still go.... your kids still want to go, you enjoy seeing your friends there or probably the number one reason.. this is your team.

This is not directed at you in any way....This is a forum where people who (largely) care about the club, come on here to rant, let off steam, offer a considered a opinion or screen shot things for their virtue signalling shite on X - that lot are at it again - but above all else, if they didn't care, if this didn't matter to them, they wouldn't post and certainly wouldn't keep going. Do I think what people write on here is what they truly feel or what happens at the rink when we lose fundamentally impacts their day and their life, not at all. I just see a load of people expressing a view - some more valued than others. This isn't life or death.

I think it's dull hockey and has been for some time but i'll still be there for the Steelers game and the game after that and the season after that.

 

[Mooney#16]

It’s funny that with everything said on here I took my niece last night who is not particularly clued up on hockey and her main observations weren’t a lack of physicality and passion but was Devils spend too much time defending and not enough attacking and why don’t they use the wide open spaces on the ice.

In fairness she nailed it on the head as far as tactical breakdowns go. I wouldn’t say Devils were out hit in that game. They weren’t dominant but they threw plenty back. But they continue to play on the outside and are weak on the puck getting turned over easily. Why we play so much dump and chase is beyond. Lack the tools to do it properly. They need to transition in open lanes with speed and not dish at the blue line but go all the way into the zone. And for Christ sake have some faith in your shot and when presented with one take the bloody thing. Yes Trevor Cox I am talking about you. Defensively they allow teams to progress to far up ice without puck pressure and seem to play a passive zonal style as opposed to PR’s advertised puck pursuit style. I will agree that the defencemen need to be much more aware when to engage physically as there is to much waving of sticks especially when players get close to the goal.

However and I do back PR and he needs time but the Devils actually look an over coached team to me. The flair and individuality looks sucked out of them. The game is to compressed and suffocates the talent as instead of stretching the ice with quick north / south plays the plan is to attack as 5 man units so there are a lot of re groups by the D but also means the break out is then telegraphed and laboured and results in a dump in. I don’t think it any coincidence that was Bode Wilde’s worst game as he learn’s the system more. His instinct is to explode up ice and he fought it a few times. Russell needs to let the guys play with more freedom and dynamism. Make the ice big. Increase the game speed by a good few rpm. Move that puck up ice as quick as possible at all times, gain more offensive zone time. Stretch teams out.

I don’t sign up to the hysterical reactions about the club stealing your money, you’re being robbed, it’s fundamentally broken. It isn’t. The club has done significantly better this season off ice. Some comments on here in that regard are unfair and unfounded.

The issues are very much on ice, tactical and fixable. They aren’t as basic as hit more as like others have said chasing hits can get you out of position but you do have to identify when a hit is the correct decision to separate someone from the puck or take there speed away. The question is how to open that ice up. Use the available space to create scoring chances and have the confidence to bury them against good teams.

My side note being when Bownsy got clipped that should have sparked a blood and thunder riot and was inexcusable. Following the night before when they shot the puck at him after the buzzer that was all the excuse needed to go after them. At least Crawford went at McAdam in return but did get a penalty for it. He should have been getting snow blasted in his face at every stoppage there after until a flame stepped up. I’ll be honest Ritchie as captain needs to address that and not Russell. That is all about character of team and team mates. On the behind the scenes they have referenced a dog mentality. That was a puppy mentality. Tail between legs and climbed into the kennel. Where is the teeth out snarling bad tempered fur coated razor blade you just don’t screw with or it bites you hard and repeatedly.

 

[Paul Sullivan]

You were happy with the physical battle shown by the devils in last night's game again then?

Have I said that? I am in the physical style camp for my preference like many a (particularly long term) Devils fan. So I would prefer to go down fighting if we must go down at all.

I just think most posts can be distilled into great when we win and crap when we lose. The reaction to the flames losses has many posters across platforms I follow reacting more like Giants fans than many would like to admit.

I do however get tired of the personal attacks I've seen in Todd and some of the ownership comments. We have 3100 seats. We are battling teams with thousands more, one of whom is owned by the rink operator. If not merch, tickets, raffles, where does the money success demands come from? I'm not saying revenue and heart are mutually exclusive but when your 5050 can reach nearly £16k it's not a magic formula Sheffield have stumbled on. It's a goldmine they sit on.