Who we want and don’t want back for next season

august04 2.0

Well-Known Member
That seemed like an interesting idea - so let’s look at some stats:

In 1996-97 in the league (a very good year for the Devils):
Matulik - 59 pts (31:28) in 49 games 1.2 ppg
Hodge - 50 pts (17:33) in 41 games 1.2 ppg
Thornton - 31 pts (13:18) in 26 games 1.2 ppg

2021-22 in the league (a good year for the Devils)
Cox - 64 pts (21:43) in 58 games 1.1 ppg
Coughler - 39 pts (24:15) in 37 games 1.1 ppg
Sandford - 54 pts (25:29) in 55 games 0.9 ppg

But the standard of opposition (leaving Sheffield aside for a second) was much, much worse in 96/97.

Bracknell, Newcastle, and Basingstoke we’re made up of some pretty low level players.

And even the big boys were top heavy.

Bit of nostalgia creeping in here and colouring the past a nice rosy tint I think.
I don’t think so. But hey, if you think the 21/22 EIHL season was of a better standard than Superleague, which you’ve stated before too, then fill your boots! I suggest you look at other things than points scored though, which is meaningless when comparing eras.
 

Rempel16

Well-Known Member
That PPG ratio is a difference of 0.5. That’s quite a big gulf.

That’s before considering that even if the ISL teams were top heavy, the black line was playing against the top line every night. CCS didn’t.

Were the CCS line as good on a consistent basis? I’d argue not. And they also didn’t bring home the league trophy.

The standard of the league this year has been poor with more players than ever coming from lesser leagues. Even in the ISL every team had a number of AHLers and top European league experience.

The CCS line is good, very good, but doesn’t hold a candle to the black line, nor the Matzka, Pelle, Birbraer line. The Martin, Lord, Morissette line was also better.

All opinions of course.
 

OJLloyd

Well-Known Member
I don’t think so. But hey, if you think the 21/22 EIHL season was of a better standard than Superleague, which you’ve stated before too, then fill your boots! I suggest you look at other things than points scored though, which is meaningless when comparing eras.
Depends what you’re looking for, but there’s no stats to support that those players were better than the ones we have today. In fact, I’d say some of them would be pretty average in the EIHL as it is today.

If you felt it was more exciting, that’s entirely subjective and can’t be measured in stats. I don’t agree, but again, opinions. In terms of stats though, clearly we should be grateful for some of what we have.
 

moggy#9

Well-Known Member
I don’t think so. But hey, if you think the 21/22 EIHL season was of a better standard than Superleague, which you’ve stated before too, then fill your boots! I suggest you look at other things than points scored though, which is meaningless when comparing eras.
I tend to agree. The current eihl is nowhere near the ISL. The black line would walk into any team in the league as a first line. BTW didn't that Bracknell team include a certain Mr kelman? Our did he join them after that?
 

OJLloyd

Well-Known Member
That PPG ratio is a difference of 0.5. That’s quite a big gulf.

That’s before considering that even if the ISL teams were top heavy, the black line was playing against the top line every night. CCS didn’t.

Were the CCS line as good on a consistent basis? I’d argue not. And they also didn’t bring home the league trophy.

The standard of the league this year has been poor with more players than ever coming from lesser leagues. Even in the ISL every team had a number of AHLers and top European league experience.

The CCS line is good, very good, but doesn’t hold a candle to the black line, nor the Matzka, Pelle, Birbraer line. The Martin, Lord, Morissette line was also better.

All opinions of course.
Cardiff, Sheffield, Nottingham and I’d say Manchester did have some top players.

The rest didn’t. And the depth across the board arguably worse.

I’m not suggesting that they are better than that particular line (stats support that statement) but they aren’t far off (that 0.5 is the whole line, and doesn’t take into account other factors such as Coughler starting late and the poor run before he got here).

But as you say, the black line was the top line. CCS isn’t.

The idea they don’t hold a candle to them isn’t borne out by the facts.
 

Rempel16

Well-Known Member
Cardiff, Sheffield, Nottingham and I’d say Manchester did have some top players.

The rest didn’t. And the depth across the board arguably worse.

I’m not suggesting that they are better than that particular line (stats support that statement) but they aren’t far off (that 0.5 is the whole line, and doesn’t take into account other factors such as Coughler starting late and the poor run before he got here).

But as you say, the black line was the top line. CCS isn’t.

The idea they don’t hold a candle to them isn’t borne out by the facts.
That’s fair.

The reason I suggest that 0.5 is a gulf is due to the playing style.

Hodge, Thornton and Matulik scored well in an era before clutch and grab was removed. They had to battle for every inch of space they could muster, whilst being grabbed/hooked etc.

Nowadays you just have to be quick on your feet and you can find six feet of space.

I look it at from a reverse angle- Could CCS have thrived in clutch and grab era? not for me. But I do believe the black line would have scored even heavier playing in this era.

Same for the Gretzky / Ovi / Crosby comparisons. Crosby wouldn’t have survived playing in the league that Gretzky had to endure.
 

jenks33

Well-Known Member
That seemed like an interesting idea - so let’s look at some stats:

In 1996-97 in the league (a very good year for the Devils):
Matulik - 59 pts (31:28) in 49 games 1.2 ppg
Hodge - 50 pts (17:33) in 41 games 1.2 ppg
Thornton - 31 pts (13:18) in 26 games 1.2 ppg

2021-22 in the league (a good year for the Devils)
Cox - 64 pts (21:43) in 58 games 1.1 ppg
Coughler - 39 pts (24:15) in 37 games 1.1 ppg
Sandford - 54 pts (25:29) in 55 games 0.9 ppg

But the standard of opposition (leaving Sheffield aside for a second) was much, much worse in 96/97.

Bracknell, Newcastle, and Basingstoke we’re made up of some pretty low level players.

And even the big boys were top heavy.

Bit of nostalgia creeping in here and colouring the past a nice rosy tint I think.
The standard of the EIHL this year outside of the top 3 was very poor. Nottingham, Guildford and Coventry (who all usually have decent teams) had seasons to forget. Nottingham were 4th and finished 33 points behind Belfast! Yes I know the ‘lesser’ teams caused the big boys problems at times but from Nottingham in 4th down to Fife in 10th they were poor teams.

Fair enough Bracknell, Basingstoke, Manchester weren’t great in 96/97 but I’m not sure why you’re putting Newcastle in that group? They fell apart a bit at the end but they had a good side. Askew, Duberman, Brebant, Bodnarchuk etc. I think they were top 3 at Xmas. And Ayr were very decent, they won the grand slam the following season with the core of that side. You had 5 very competitive teams that season for me.

It is obviously difficult to compare different eras but I don’t for the life of me see how anybody that watched us in the 90’s can put the CCS line up there with the Black Line. As I said yesterday, Sacrilege!
 

OJLloyd

Well-Known Member
That’s fair.

The reason I suggest that 0.5 is a gulf is due to the playing style.

Hodge, Thornton and Matulik scored well in an era before clutch and grab was removed. They had to battle for every inch of space they could muster, whilst being grabbed/hooked etc.

Nowadays you just have to be quick on your feet and you can find six feet of space.

I look it at from a reverse angle- Could CCS have thrived in clutch and grab era? not for me. But I do believe the black line would have scored even heavier playing in this era.

Same for the Gretzky / Ovi / Crosby comparisons. Crosby wouldn’t have survived playing in the league that Gretzky had to endure.
Agreed. I think a good comparison in Wales is 70’s rugby. Gareth Edwards wouldn’t have stood a chance against the gym monkeys of today, but rugby is essentially a different game now.
 

OJLloyd

Well-Known Member
The standard of the EIHL this year outside of the top 3 was very poor. Nottingham, Guildford and Coventry (who all usually have decent teams) had seasons to forget. Nottingham were 4th and finished 33 points behind Belfast! Yes I know the ‘lesser’ teams caused the big boys problems at times but from Nottingham in 4th down to Fife in 10th they were poor teams.

Fair enough Bracknell, Basingstoke, Manchester weren’t great in 96/97 but I’m not sure why you’re putting Newcastle in that group? They fell apart a bit at the end but they had a good side. Askew, Duberman, Brebant, Bodnarchuk etc. I think they were top 3 at Xmas. And Ayr were very decent, they won the grand slam the following season with the core of that side. You had 5 very competitive teams that season for me.

It is obviously difficult to compare different eras but I don’t for the life of me see how anybody that watched us in the 90’s can put the CCS line up there with the Black Line. As I said yesterday, Sacrilege!
I’m stuck on the train (thanks TFW) so I went back to watch the Autumn Cup Final against Ayr from 1997.

It’s very different to watch, in terms of speed particularly (and the ice looks huge), and so maybe it is wrong to compare. But I don’t see anyone from that game (well, first period) being a stand out in modern hockey.
 

moggy#9

Well-Known Member
Cardiff, Sheffield, Nottingham and I’d say Manchester did have some top players.

The rest didn’t. And the depth across the board arguably worse.

I’m not suggesting that they are better than that particular line (stats support that statement) but they aren’t far off (that 0.5 is the whole line, and doesn’t take into account other factors such as Coughler starting late and the poor run before he got here).

But as you say, the black line was the top line. CCS isn’t.

The idea they don’t hold a candle to them isn’t borne out by the facts.
Let's look at this another way. Hodge was a candidate for the Calder trophy, matulik was unfortunate to be with the oilers organisation when they had arguably the greatest team in nhl history (in the current NHL he'd probably have had house chance), while Thornton was one of the best devils ever and certainly one of very few to score a hat trick on his debut.

That line had speed, finesse, toughness and skill. If you wanted a definition of devils hockey, that is it.
 

moggy#9

Well-Known Member
I’m stuck on the train (thanks TFW) so I went back to watch the Autumn Cup Final against Ayr from 1997.

It’s very different to watch, in terms of speed particularly (and the ice looks huge), and so maybe it is wrong to compare. But I don’t see anyone from that game (well, first period) being a stand out in modern hockey.
Oh come on. Next you'll be suggesting that Gretzky would be a fourth longer in the modern NHL.
 

OJLloyd

Well-Known Member
Oh come on. Next you'll be suggesting that Gretzky would be a fourth longer in the modern NHL.
They’re clearly very good in their era.

And obviously they didn’t have the same training etc as they do now. So maybe they would have been had they gone through the same training etc.

But the pace of the game in general is considerably slower.

Atmosphere is very good though…

I
 

moggy#9

Well-Known Member
Ayr were class for a couple of seasons.
It was fun going up to the centrum. The ice there was massive (I think a couple of meters wider and longer than our standard 60x30 at IAW). The thing was that it suited the devils well and we had some good wins there.
 

jenks33

Well-Known Member
They’re clearly very good in their era.

And obviously they didn’t have the same training etc as they do now. So maybe they would have been had they gone through the same training etc.

But the pace of the game in general is considerably slower.

Atmosphere is very good though…

I
Did you ever see the Matulik, Hodge, Thornton line play live?
 
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