Pivotal week for the Cardiff Devils

Kipper · Jul 10, 2011

I believe this will be a pivotal week which decides whether the Ragan regime has any hope of continuing to own/manage the Cardiff Devils going forward.

A crucial meeting is taking place with the UK Border Agency which will determine whether the Devils get the appropriate licence to sponsor imports. Is there anyone left in the employ of the Devils who knows the procedures necessary and is capable of completing,what I am told is very complicated paperwork? I have been told of several instances with a number of clubs where visas have been initially rejected because of minor errors in paperwork.

With £140,000 of advance season ticket money (paid up front in full-not direct debits) gone to the wolves,how is Ragan going to fund flights,bonds for accommodation,ITC cards etc for any imports we bring in?If he is planning to use his own personal millions for this,then perhaps he should start by paying hs loyal staff and suppliers what they are owed.

What does Paul Ragan actually own as far as the Club is concerned? Has a satisfactory deal been struck with Shannon Hope for the use of the Devils logo and IP rights?

Will Mike Petrouis decide to play hard ball and close the BBT? The school summer holidays are a quiet time for rink users anyway so how much does he personally have to lose? Planet Ice might suffer but will Petrouis personally? The question is, does Planet Ice own the building or does Petrouis own it personally? I have heard rumours that even if the BBT remains open,then Petrouis may ban the Ragan regime from entering the building.

What is the future of the DCF? There is talk that PI may insist on payment for ice usage up front as invoices are apparently outstanding.There are rumblings amongst some parents about whether any DCF money has been used to shore up the Devils in recent months.I don't know the answers but these are the questions that are being discussed when I am at the rink 2 or 3 times a week.

Am I concerned about the immediate future of the Devils and DCF? In view of the above issues,yes I am.Very much so.As I said earlier,the resolution of these matters will be pivotal to whether Paul Ragan can continue to run the organisation or whether he will have to stand down and let another ownership take over.

I wish Paul Ragan well in overcoming these issues so that the Club can move forward with confidence for the coming season.

jodysstillagirlsname · Jul 10, 2011

I also wish Paul well in overcoming these issues. It is time as Devils fans to get behind the club and the team. Hopefully G will do us proud and build on last seasons successes on the ice.

If Paul can get through this season and take us through the summer, he will take us in to next season as a stronger and leaner business

Max Beerbarrell · Jul 10, 2011

Kipper said:

I always look forward to your posts Kipper as they seem well informed and well written.

I have exactly the same concerns as you although I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Devils had a new sponsor come on board, one where PR has some strong (but still legal) connections and they choose to plough £140k into the club. I just have a suspicion this money hasn't just disappeared and is probably offshore somewhere.

You're spot on though. And there's more than likely to be several more twists and turns before the season starts. This is going to severely damage our chances of bringing in any decent players too. Understandably, if you were a potential import looking to move across the pond and possibly uproot your family, you would want a heck of a lot more security than the Cardiff Devils can offer right now!

I feel for G in all this, I really do.

Max

Earnie · Jul 10, 2011

I am 100% in agreement with Kipper,Jody and Max on this one.
After all PR's expertise is in rescuing companies in trouble - do your utmost Paul!

Anonymous · Jul 10, 2011

its never ending with us devils. never are we able to look forward to a seasn without some kind of disruption,

why cant everything be fine for a change

Finny · Jul 10, 2011

I thought Andy French was going to do some of our paperwork for us?
Or is that different to what Kipper is mentioning?

Plus, I can't see any way that PI would be allowed to ban the Devils from the rink. Isn't it in their contract that they have to give the Devils X number of hours for free?

Out of interest, why has this been made a sticky?

Kipper · Jul 10, 2011

Finny said:

I am told that Andy French has resigned his hockey positions including with EIHA.Don't know how true it is.As far as PI is concerned - guess it depends on whether any formal contract has been properly extended and who the contract is with.Has it died with RinkCorp for example?

osh · Jul 10, 2011

Good post Kipper with lots of questions that need to be answered.

One point that really concerns me is the fact that we are all debating how difficult financially it will be for PR next season yet months ago when his business acumen was questioned on this forum - by me and a few others - some of the other members responded with '"he is a millionaire, he knows better than you" " who are you to question what he does with his money, he knows best" etc etc. Bearing in mind he was one of 3 bidders for the new arena, if , for arguments sake, he was now awarded the project, how the hell would he begin to fund it if, as it appears,he may even struggle to get a team out for the 2011/12 season !

Chris · Jul 10, 2011

No idea, i'm not going to answer for the other mods, so i'll let whoever stickied it explain why.

I recall that also, I can't remember where it was mentioned, possibly by someone on another forum but there was a quote from French himself I think?

Chris.

Finny · Jul 10, 2011

Paul Ragan has already turned down the opportunity to build the rink osh. And because of that it will now go into the next phase of the ISV which will require far greater financial backing and building knowledge than Ragan has.

Finny · Jul 10, 2011

Chris said:

Pretty certain it was mentioned at the fans forum. I think the question was asked to Simon about the sponsorship thing and ITCs and Simon replied (I think) that Andy French would be over-seeing everything.

Has French quit the EIHL completely or just as an employee? From what Bob was saying on hockileaks I got the impression he was simply leaving his position and working for them freelance to avoid the EIHL having to pay PAYE?

Twinkle · Jul 10, 2011

Great post Kip.

One thing that does give me a smidgen of hope, is that G is still here. He is owed £'s by Rinkcorp and has been told there is no money and no-one would have blamed him had he walked away...but he hasnt (yet) .If G still thinks this season is viable then i have to hope so to.

Finny · Jul 10, 2011

Part of my thinks I may regret posting this....but what the heck......never stopped me before.....

I also want to make sure that none of this post is being critical of Kipper. Far, far from it - it's probably best that all the worries have been put into this one thread. From my point of view though...

...I'm most worried that I'm not worried. I read posts about people panicking about this and that, and yet I myself can not connect with this panic. Maybe it's because I have been a fan for so long (both the Devils and Cardiff City) that I have got used to such things and have become immune to it. And before someone else brings it up, maybe it is because I got (or had) a free season ticket and so have nothing to lose financially from it.

However, we have been told now several times that all season tickets will be honoured so I don't think we need worry about that anymore. To not honour them would have been financial suicide and it would cost Ragan far more in lost supporters than to have to dig into his own pockets to cover it.

The whole rink situation with PI is for me no big deal. In fact, the news it has been taken off PI and will be re-tendered as a twin-pad facility is the best news IMO we have had in a very long time. And I mean, a very very long time. I can't see anyway that PI could stop us playing there and they are just trying to get as much money for themselves before we get to wave them goodbye.

I also can't imagine Shannon would do anything to risk the future of the club. He may well be trying to get as good a deal as he can from Ragan for using the names and trademarks, but I find it hard to imagine a situation where he would stop the club from running.

The sponsorship license is obviously a big deal. What is the worst case scenario? We don't get the license full stop and we have no team - or we have to re-apply for it and start the season late?

In the end though, is there anything we can do? If not, am I selfish for not worrying about it and really just hoping that it all works out ok in the end?

And am I the only person feeling this way?

Dickie Dunn · Jul 10, 2011

Kipper

These are the exact same questions and suspicions that were alluded to at the Fans Forum, yet none of them were answered. WHY?

These are the questions and suspicions that have been scratched and surfacing on here since the news of Rink Corp going into administration. Yet no one has any of the answers, no one has any excuse, other than to blame the Council, Matt Burge, Bob Philips or Uncle Tom Cobley.

Will Planet Ice take their ball home, who knows? But if they have been giving free Ice Time to the Devils since the BBT went up, why is there so much debt? Why is this now the 3rd possibly the 4th owner since moving to the Bay? How do other Elite league clubs manage to pay their dues? Does any other club get so much free and still go bust?

PR has admitted he got the business model wrong. Well that must have been spectacularly wrong if the club were paying no Ice time rental, or office rental yet we couldn't seem to finish the season on an even footing. I still don't get why 3 companies were lumped into one. PR owns quite a few other companies, yet they are all very seperate, why make this mistake with these three?

Now there are emails being sent out for people to pick up the DD's for season tickets. Season tickets for what exactly? There is no confidence that the new company has the authority to continue as the IP seems to belong elsewhere. There is no confience that the administration have the knowledge of Hockey as a product to continue into this season. Who exactly is going build the bridges with sponsors, fans, agents, players? On the papers Bob published online it showed an agent that hadn't been payed, how the hell are we going to get imports if the agents close ranks?

SO OK, THE BIG QUESTION, WHERE EXACTLY IS THE SEASON TICKET MONEY?

If it is nearly £140,000, then surely it is accounted for somewhere. Surely it is just courtesy to let people know how their money was lost? This is no different from anything in the past, regardless of personalities. This is also the second season in succession that rumours of DCF funding not being correct. I hope to god there is nothing wrong

I will remain sceptical about any of these concerns being answered. I can foresee this happening again in the very near future and I very concerned that not all creditors have lodged their full amounts with the administrators yet.

I have no doubt that the Devils will continue, but i don't want it to go forward permanently in debt or discredited. Or for that matter relying on the good will of the council, PI not pulling the plug, or for Shannon having to "be the good guy" and not let the fans down, when in reality he should just tell PR where the hell to go!

Finny · Jul 10, 2011

Dickie Dunn said:

People keep asking this question and I don't understand why. I thought we had established that the money had gone into Rink Corps and so was gone. Unless people are suggesting that the money has been secretly moved elsewhere - which I would have thought would be illegal and easily traced by just looking at the bank balances for the past couple of months.

I did these sums on THF and assuming I am right (nobody has picked up on any mistakes yet) then it might give us a better understanding.

The Liquidators report states the debt owing to HMRC for PAYE and NIC as being £183,583.06. That presumably is for both teams players and both teams office staff. (Sheffields for only 6 months).

Would it be fair to assume that PAYE and NIC account for roughly 20% of a persons wages?
If so that would mean the total amount of wages spent was £917,915.30. ish.

That - is a hell of a lot of money which £160,000 of season ticket money would make only a slight dent.

For the past couple of years people claimed the back office staff was too many and too expensive. I argued that it wasn't and it looks like I was wrong. Time for me to hold my hands up and admit it.
However, perhaps that is what has caused the majority of our financial problems? The fact that we are now left with a much smaller back office would suggest it could well be.

Kipper · Jul 10, 2011

Finny said:

Ha ha none taken Finny

My concen about this sum is that it is traditionally season ticket monies paid for in advance that cover the start up costs each season as the Club has limited if any income streams before the season starts.If £140k start up funding is not available as it has been swallowed up by the Liquidators,where are the funds going to come from to make up this shortfall.

bluedevil · Jul 10, 2011

I'm in full agreement with Finny's last two posts. I am not worried about the season being played at all. My wife and me have a season ticket each paid in full and I am not concerned that I will be left out of pocket (and haven't been since the liquidation was rumoured). I don't think we will 'do an Edinburgh', whilst I doubt we'll challenge for the title I think we will be competitive.

As for the "missing" money, all the fans have picked up on the amount they feel would have been paid to Rink Corps pre-liquidation. The liquidators will also know this and will make sure it is accounted for, if it isn't I expect criminal action to be taken against Paul Ragan and/or other staff.

The answer of where it has gone is simple. It has either serviced debts before liquidation, or it has been seized by the liquidators and will be used when all assets are realised and any dividend payments are paid to creditors.

Skippy · Jul 10, 2011

http://www.cardiffdevils.com/news/cardi ... statement/

Announcement by the club on the rink situation

phil PLT · Jul 10, 2011

Andy French has certainly helped out clubs in the past with paperwork so irrespective of his present position with the EIHL I'm sure he would do the same again, and if freelance, then with the appropriate remuneration.

Nott Simpson · Jul 10, 2011

Like Finny I have made some calculations about last seasons total running costs and cannot for the life of me see how the debt could reach the levels reported.

Try it yourself by estimating total wages (including PAYE & NI), ITC & travel (to and from Cardiff); housing; insurance & medical costs, player & team equipment, team transport and accommodation, non player costs & back office.

One simple way of estimating costs is to assume that other costs equate to salary cap (plus PAYE & NI).

Working regularly with forensic accountants I have a view but it is best kept to myself.

OJ

PS

The only way forward in my view is to start afresh with a new Devils club even if it is in the EPL or lower league and work to restore the tarnished name of this great club

Pivotal week for the Cardiff Devils

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