My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and girls)

TheStub

Active Member
Thread starter #1
I have split this from the Joe Myers thread - let's have a thread and debate the views, arguments and situation. Please, actual debate here. No personal attacks, only fact based discussion and arguments around ideas.

What saddens me is the seeming growing gulf between all sides. There is no quarter asked for our given, both view points are entrenched and dogmatism is running rife.

Basically fan "groups" and owners have their heads so far their own bums that they ate working to destroy the team for everyone.
 

Paul Sullivan

Well-Known Member
#2
Re: Message from Joe Myers

TheStub said:
What saddens me is the seeming growing gulf between all sides. There is no quarter asked for our given, both view points are entrenched and dogmatism is running rife.

Basically fan "groups" and owners have their heads so far their own bums that they ate working to destroy the team for everyone.
Interesting that you would group those who oppose the management into an equal footing as they are in terms of 'working to destroy' the team (probably should have said 'Club'?).

If you think that the opposition of the mistreatment of the players is a deliberate attempt to destroy the Cardiff Devils on anywhere near the scale of the callous, inept treatment they (players) have received by the Devils I would be interested to read how you qualify that? Opposing the shafting of players, apparently, now equates to being the equal of those who shaft the players? Confusing. The upcoming protest has been, for example, far from dogmatic. It is merely an outlet for anyone who is frustrated, sad or disappointed in the management of the Club this season to express their dissatisfaction. And contrary to whatever Jimmy, Gazza and a couple of others post / tweet, there are more than just one or two 'bitter/power hungry egomaniacs' (tm) who are unhappy with recent developments.

The only dogmatic / propaganda style communications thus far have been from the Club itself.
 

TheStub

Active Member
Thread starter #3
Re: Message from Joe Myers

Paul Sullivan said:
Interesting that you would group those who oppose the management into an equal footing as they are in terms of 'working to destroy' the team (probably should have said 'Club'?).
I would, because that is how this theatre is playing out. Battle lines are drawn, trenches dug and views now held firm. Rhetoric is now in the ascendancy, and sides must be taken. It is classic politics, as one side moves in one direction the other must pull against it to preserve their own platform and create a choice.

Paul Sullivan said:
If you think that the opposition of the mistreatment of the players is a deliberate attempt to destroy the Cardiff Devils on anywhere near the scale of the callous, inept treatment they (players) have received by the Devils I would be interested to read how you qualify that?
Nicely done Paul. You've built a great rhetorical trap. I can now post that I'm with those who oppose this callous mistreatment of players, or that I am done ogre who wants to see these poor young boys out on the street.

When the truth is, Paul, I am neither.

It may be my autistic side, but I see very little to go postal over.

Provided contracts have been honoured people have been treated in exactly the way they agreed to be when they signed.

G is probably the major case in point here. That while thing was badly handled. By both parties. The club should have handled it better, but personally I can't help thinking it was the correct hockey decision at the wrong time.

Now that is my view on the hockey, not the man, not the contract, not the negotiation - but the hockey.
Paul Sullivan said:
Opposing the shafting of players, apparently, now equates to being the equal of those who shaft the players? Confusing.
Yet more rhetoric.

I didn't say that, you are the one building that entrenched gulf from the words I wrote. But it is interesting to see what you are doing. You are building an emotional charged argument onto my words which men something else. That then allows you to put me in the other camp and discredit me as a player hater.

I'm not. I don't like the way we have been chopping and changing, but I am pleased that we are working to cover injury mid season. A lot of it makes me wonder if Pope had lost the room, and then I look on here and social media and wonder if Pope had a lot of help in that.
Paul Sullivan said:
The upcoming protest has been, for example, far from dogmatic. It is merely an outlet for anyone who is frustrated, sad or disappointed in the management of the Club this season to express their dissatisfaction.
Great. Protest. That is your right, and making a statement to the club is a good way of showing them that the confusing, mixed, PR and player movements is upsetting the fan base, fickle as they are.

Out of interest, what is the objective? What is our "mission complete" point. When I'm there with my placard and you shout "what do we want" what am I replying?
Paul Sullivan said:
And contrary to whatever Jimmy, Gazza and a couple of others post / tweet, there are more than just one or two 'bitter/power hungry egomaniacs' (tm) who are unhappy with recent developments.
I think there are various degrees of unhappy. Some are unhappy that their hobby is being spoiled a bit, some are incensed by the team that they live having it's great and soul ripped out.

Some, like me, prefer to view the whole general mishmash see the shades of grey and make objective decisions about things as they go past.

Just because I'm not stood with you does not mean I'm stood opposed to you. I'm just saying you have to try better than rhetoric to shift me from my (internally) reasoned argument.
Paul Sullivan said:
The only dogmatic / propaganda style communications thus far have been from the Club itself.
Here we will have to disagree. I've seen lots of dogma and propaganda in both directions.

I will admit, many of the clubs communications make me wonder at the level of functional literacy from the people that wrote it. I am often more saddened by the unprofessional face the club presents.
 
#4
Re: Message from Joe Myers

TheStub said:
Paul Sullivan said:
Interesting that you would group those who oppose the management into an equal footing as they are in terms of 'working to destroy' the team (probably should have said 'Club'?).
I would, because that is how this theatre is playing out. Battle lines are drawn, trenches dug and views now held firm. Rhetoric is now in the ascendancy, and sides must be taken. It is classic politics, as one side moves in one direction the other must pull against it to preserve their own platform and create a choice.

Paul Sullivan said:
If you think that the opposition of the mistreatment of the players is a deliberate attempt to destroy the Cardiff Devils on anywhere near the scale of the callous, inept treatment they (players) have received by the Devils I would be interested to read how you qualify that?
Nicely done Paul. You've built a great rhetorical trap. I can now post that I'm with those who oppose this callous mistreatment of players, or that I am done ogre who wants to see these poor young boys out on the street.

When the truth is, Paul, I am neither.

It may be my autistic side, but I see very little to go postal over.

Provided contracts have been honoured people have been treated in exactly the way they agreed to be when they signed.

G is probably the major case in point here. That while thing was badly handled. By both parties. The club should have handled it better, but personally I can't help thinking it was the correct hockey decision at the wrong time.

Now that is my view on the hockey, not the man, not the contract, not the negotiation - but the hockey.
Paul Sullivan said:
Opposing the shafting of players, apparently, now equates to being the equal of those who shaft the players? Confusing.
Yet more rhetoric.

I didn't say that, you are the one building that entrenched gulf from the words I wrote. But it is interesting to see what you are doing. You are building an emotional charged argument onto my words which men something else. That then allows you to put me in the other camp and discredit me as a player hater.

I'm not. I don't like the way we have been chopping and changing, but I am pleased that we are working to cover injury mid season. A lot of it makes me wonder if Pope had lost the room, and then I look on here and social media and wonder if Pope had a lot of help in that.
Paul Sullivan said:
The upcoming protest has been, for example, far from dogmatic. It is merely an outlet for anyone who is frustrated, sad or disappointed in the management of the Club this season to express their dissatisfaction.
Great. Protest. That is your right, and making a statement to the club is a good way of showing them that the confusing, mixed, PR and player movements is upsetting the fan base, fickle as they are.

Out of interest, what is the objective? What is our "mission complete" point. When I'm there with my placard and you shout "what do we want" what am I replying?
Paul Sullivan said:
And contrary to whatever Jimmy, Gazza and a couple of others post / tweet, there are more than just one or two 'bitter/power hungry egomaniacs' (tm) who are unhappy with recent developments.
I think there are various degrees of unhappy. Some are unhappy that their hobby is being spoiled a bit, some are incensed by the team that they live having it's great and soul ripped out.

Some, like me, prefer to view the whole general mishmash see the shades of grey and make objective decisions about things as they go past.

Just because I'm not stood with you does not mean I'm stood opposed to you. I'm just saying you have to try better than rhetoric to shift me from my (internally) reasoned argument.
Paul Sullivan said:
The only dogmatic / propaganda style communications thus far have been from the Club itself.
Here we will have to disagree. I've seen lots of dogma and propaganda in both directions.

I will admit, many of the clubs communications make me wonder at the level of functional literacy from the people that wrote it. I am often more saddened by the unprofessional face the club presents.

+1 well said TheStub
 

youngbob

Active Member
#5
Re: Message from Joe Myers

Has anyone actually read the subject of this thread?

And the original post on behalf of Joe?

It started with a statement from Joe thanking people for their support and has now degenerated into the usual arguments we've seen over the past few months

That shows little or no respect for Joe - now he's not even mentioned in the posts, it's all about Ragan, G, Pope, forcing Matt to leave, conspiracy theories and personal attacks between posters

Is that the way you think he'd want you all to respond?
 

jimmy snels

Well-Known Member
#6
Re: Message from Joe Myers

Paul Sullivan wrote:And contrary to whatever Jimmy, Gazza and a couple of others post / tweet, there are more than just one or two 'bitter/power hungry egomaniacs' (tm) who are unhappy with recent developments.

Nope I never once said there were only a couple I said I thought YOU were bitter and twisted and constantly de-rail threads to suit some need you have now you have been removed as dj.

I support the devils, like seeing new signings, try to see the bright side of things as well as the negatives and try to keep a balance. I believe thats exactly wgat gazza does as well.

To be honest paul your starting to get on my nerves. You try to make me out to be this pro ragan insider, happy clapping away. So for clarity:

I don't think the person putting out PR has a brain
I do think euro shopping for players is good/interesting
I don't think G was a great coach
I have no intrest in players lives other than hockey related stuff
I think pope is wrong choice of coach
I will back team despite my feeling not all is right
I think phil hill was a waste of space by the end and G couldn't see it.
Our recruitment wasn't as good as people tried to make out.
I like we are carrying a spare import
I think the balance of the team is wrong
I don't think all our brits will leave because lots have connections in area
Until I KNOW its just conjecture
I think the negativity on every thread is as damaging to the club signing and retaining players as I and others were told we were by YOU only a few years ago. We couldn't even have a thread discussing who we'd keep gas or resign without you kicking off how bad it was.
I had NO IDEA we were signing paul f*****g bissonnette and don't know paul ragan.
 

TheStub

Active Member
Thread starter #7
Re: Message from Joe Myers

jimmy snels said:
To be honest paul your starting to get on my nerves. You try to make me out to be this pro ragan insider, happy clapping away. So for clarity:

I don't think the person putting out PR has a brain
I do think euro shopping for players is good/interesting
I don't think G was a great coach
I have no intrest in players lives other than hockey related stuff
I think pope is wrong choice of coach
I will back team despite my feeling not all is right
I think phil hill was a waste of space by the end and G couldn't see it.
Our recruitment wasn't as good as people tried to make out.
I like we are carrying a spare import
I think the balance of the team is wrong
I don't think all our brits will leave because lots have connections in area
Until I KNOW its just conjecture
I think the negativity on every thread is as damaging to the club signing and retaining players as I and others were told we were by YOU only a few years ago. We couldn't even have a thread discussing who we'd keep gas or resign without you kicking off how bad it was.
I had NO IDEA we were signing paul f*****g bissonnette and don't know paul ragan.
Well said sir. I may not agree with all of those points - but certainly most of them I do.

Actually, where we disagree is shades of grey ;) (my phrase for the day it would seem).

Certainly, I think the club needs to look at their PR. Not just the copy writing (and dear lord that is currently worse than Cugnet was at netminding), but whole package. Someone needs to go to the club and make them see the way they portray themselves in all areas and improve the whole package.
 

Gospel

Active Member
#8
Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

I have to say i agree with The Stub. The reasons must people have been complaining about whats been going is not because of hockey reasons but for personal reasons & gripes.

If ANY pleayer/employee feels a contract has been broken, take the matter to Court and deal with it properly. Has anyone done that?

Joe posted a heart felt message and good luck to him in the future, however he was never going to be our No1 so why not try out the younger guys? Do we want them to move to other clubs to get a chance? I thought people wanted home grown talent to shine through, well for that to happen older players have to move on.

I am also sick to the back teeth of certain people & theirs posts constantly attacking people because they have an opinion, which isnt shared.
 

Gospel

Active Member
#9
Re: Message from Joe Myers

jimmy snels said:
Paul Sullivan wrote:And contrary to whatever Jimmy, Gazza and a couple of others post / tweet, there are more than just one or two 'bitter/power hungry egomaniacs' (tm) who are unhappy with recent developments.

Nope I never once said there were only a couple I said I thought YOU were bitter and twisted and constantly de-rail threads to suit some need you have now you have been removed as dj.

I support the devils, like seeing new signings, try to see the bright side of things as well as the negatives and try to keep a balance. I believe thats exactly wgat gazza does as well.

To be honest paul your starting to get on my nerves. You try to make me out to be this pro ragan insider, happy clapping away. So for clarity:

I don't think the person putting out PR has a brain
I do think euro shopping for players is good/interesting
I don't think G was a great coach
I have no intrest in players lives other than hockey related stuff
I think pope is wrong choice of coach
I will back team despite my feeling not all is right
I think phil hill was a waste of space by the end and G couldn't see it.
Our recruitment wasn't as good as people tried to make out.
I like we are carrying a spare import
I think the balance of the team is wrong
I don't think all our brits will leave because lots have connections in area
Until I KNOW its just conjecture
I think the negativity on every thread is as damaging to the club signing and retaining players as I and others were told we were by YOU only a few years ago. We couldn't even have a thread discussing who we'd keep gas or resign without you kicking off how bad it was.
I had NO IDEA we were signing paul f*****g bissonnette and don't know paul ragan.

+1
 

TheStub

Active Member
Thread starter #10
Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Gospel said:
Joe posted a heart felt message and good luck to him in the future, however he was never going to be our No1 so why not try out the younger guys? Do we want them to move to other clubs to get a chance? I thought people wanted home grown talent to shine through, well for that to happen older players have to move on.
Quite. As I said on the Joe thread, there needs to be some levels in UK hockey to allow netties at his level get the starts they need to develop. Same for the likes of Nathan Craze.

The only gripe I have about this move is the timing. It makes little difference now, so it could have waited until the off season where no-one would have raise an eyebrow.
 
#11
Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

You will never get all fans to agree on the same thing

There are a lot of fans like me who love this club and have followed and attended for many many years. We have seen many protests and change of ownership and home but we stood together to march and to be heard for what was right for this club.

The recent events are turning these long term fans away and is killing our love for the game and for the club. They are slowly killing this team and what they are known for.

Yes fans come and go but they are turning away the long term fans who they have needed or so many many years and needed that income.

The protest is a way for us fans to say that we cant accept what they are doing and how they are ruining what was once one of the best hockey teams in the UK.

Not everyone will agree but there are a lot of fans who feel like this and sadly most will not return next season.
 
#12
Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Before its suggested i am not questioning any fans support of this club new or old
 

TheStub

Active Member
Thread starter #13
Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Burgy said:
The recent events are turning these long term fans away and is killing our love for the game and for the club. They are slowly killing this team and what they are known for.
For clarity, what are those events and how have they turned fans away?

I'm not being factious, but lots of people talk about events and being upset - but what are we actually protesting? When the club comes out and asks "what are your demands" what will we say?
 
#14
Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Surly i do not have to list what every fan has been seeing going on at this club this season.

The G Saga
Pope worming his way to head coach
Popes worming to Sack players behind Adams.
Regans handling of fans this season. under estimating what we know and what we will take
the hiring and firing revolving door
The way players have been treated this season and last.
Late / non payment to players this and last season.
So on and so on the list continues

Fans have been talking about this all season and it has now come to a point where the fans want to be heard.

PR and BP have made this club a laughing stock and its being seen and mentioned by fans across the league.

Surly you have seen and heard the conversations to understand what and why the protest is happening
 
#15
Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

I agree with Stub's sentiment.

I don't like the trench warfare approach, and when it is being pushed by people with a personal grievance against the Devils, it makes me wonder what the motive is here.

The club are bolstering the ranks at end of season after a bad run of injuries, they have replaced a long standing back up goalie with youngsters keen for ice time and to improve themselves.

Take away the emotion and look at the situation in black and white - it may not be as bad as it seems.
 

jimmy snels

Well-Known Member
#16
Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Just to clarify, how do people know players aint being paid ? I sure as hell dont KNOW that. Iv heard this rumour for ten years usually as a justification for a horrendous performance
 

Have Hope#35

Well-Known Member
#17
Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

BBW said:
I agree with Stub's sentiment.

I don't like the trench warfare approach, and when it is being pushed by people with a personal grievance against the Devils, it makes me wonder what the motive is here.

The club are bolstering the ranks at end of season after a bad run of injuries, they have replaced a long standing back up goalie with youngsters keen for ice time and to improve themselves.

Take away the emotion and look at the situation in black and white - it may not be as bad as it seems.
There may well be a positive in promoting young, ambitious goalies... There is also no doubting that Joe Myers has been shat on from a great height! He stood for almost everything good about this club imo... Being released with a bit of dignity is the least he could have expected!

But then we go back to how G' was let go... It's not always the 'why' but the 'how'. How could they do it like this and think it's morally correct?
 

Slartibartfast

Well-Known Member
#18
Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Im with the Stub. Its shades of grey for me.
I like the fact that we are signing injury cover
I accept that players may be replaced based on ability/performance (that has been happening since John Lawless' time)
I do think the club ain't good at PR
I don't understand some of the recent decisions and wonder if the management know what they are doing.
I don't know if the players are owed money. If they are, its not the first time and is usually caused by financial difficulties linked to dropping attendance. Bad press and protests will only encourage more people to lose interest making it even harder to pay players.
Had I not been a reader of this forum I probably would have attended more matches. But some days after reading this forum I lose the will to live never mind the will to watch hockey. (For some reason I keep reading it though. Its like a strange drug.)
All this hatred and abuse feels like history repeating itself. I wonder if it will carry on with the next owner and the one after that. If it does then surely its not hard to spot the common theme.
 

TheStub

Active Member
Thread starter #19
Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Burgy said:
Surly i do not have to list what every fan has been seeing going on at this club this season.
...
Surly you have seen and heard the conversations to understand what and why the protest is happening
Surely you see that you do. If you are manning the barricades, make sure that the reasons are well understood by the other side.

Creating and publishing (thank you) that list quantifies the grievance. It stops being ephemeral and becomes a concrete thing. A thing that can be brought front and centre and debated.

Yes, I have heard the conversations - but I wanted someone who is protesting to clearly state why.

I would also add, for the sake of clarity of debate, that making the list less emotive would be beneficial. Stick to facts, debate facts - as facts can cause less offence and are more likely to result in a balanced outcome that aggrieves no-one.
 

TheStub

Active Member
Thread starter #20
Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Have Hope#35 said:
But then we go back to how G' was let go... It's not always the 'why' but the 'how'. How could they do it like this and think it's morally correct?
Quite right. The whole G affair was a mess, and no-one (I think to some extent G included) came out of it looking whiter than white.

So, to add another how - considering where we are now how can the club make amends?
 
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