My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and girls)

#21
Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

TheStub said:
Surly you have seen and heard the conversations to understand what and why the protest is happening
Surely you see that you do. If you are manning the barricades, make sure that the reasons are well understood by the other side.

Creating and publishing (thank you) that list quantifies the grievance. It stops being ephemeral and becomes a concrete thing. A thing that can be brought front and centre and debated.

Yes, I have heard the conversations - but I wanted someone who is protesting to clearly state why.

I would also add, for the sake of clarity of debate, that making the list less emotive would be beneficial. Stick to facts, debate facts - as facts can cause less offence and are more likely to result in a balanced outcome that aggrieves no-one.




As I don't speak for the fans that choose to stand outside my list can only be seen as my personal understanding and not a clear list of items to be questioned with the management.

Until someone makes an official list of items to be questioned then any lists made can only be personal views
 

TheStub

Active Member
Thread starter #22
Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Burgy said:
As I don't speak for the fans that choose to stand outside my list can only be seen as my personal understanding and not a clear list of items to be questioned with the management.

Until someone makes an official list of items to be questioned then any lists made can only be personal views
That's fine, and hopefully well understood. But you can see the need for the list(s).

Without it, what will standing outside achieve? There has to be a why to protest.

Perhaps everyone should publish their lists. Clearly thought out, without emotion is best.

If Joe can be interviewed and give such a clear, balanced and dispassionate summing up of the situation, the fans who protest owe it to him to do likewise.
 
#23
Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

I agree that there will need to be at some stage a clear cut list of items that fans want to question.

I assume this may come in time.
 

TheStub

Active Member
Thread starter #24
Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Burgy said:
I agree that there will need to be at some stage a clear cut list of items that fans want to question.

I assume this may come in time.
But you (they, us) have already planned the protest. Surely that list is needed in the run up to that point.

Perhaps it would be wise for everyone to post their lists. From that you have a mutual list - or at the very least somewhere to refer the club to.

Like those Race For Life events where you write who you are running for. You have a thread to protest for.
 
#25
Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

The unprofessional press releases made by the club throughout the season.

The contradictory press releases made by the club (usually within a short space of time) released.

The treatment of players and the manner in which they have been released from the club.

The attitude of the club toward fans who question them. The Militia / Sheffield in Disguise tweet being the most notable occassion.

The fact that the club is unwilling to admit errors and blames all questions and protests on the same minority trying to cause trouble. The #Outside Facebook event has current match night volunteers who give up vast amounts of time for the benefit of the club.

Brent Pope treating the job of head coach as a fashion show and taking a selection of hats to away games (this is to do with how we look as a club rather than the fact I think it looks stupid!)

The fact that every press release seems to be about what is best for business. I want to see what is best for hockey, players and fans.

The fact that the above has made us either a club to pity or laugh at from fans around the country. The majority I have seen are pitying us, which I think is worse!
 

Ocko

Well-Known Member
#26
Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

I was relatively supportive or Pope and Ragan, I thought I would see what happens, before drawing my own conclusions.

What I've found the most irritating is that PR has happily said how he supports his coach etc well it is a shame that the coach hasnt done a great deal of coaching when it matters. There are at least 2 or 3 occasions he's buggered off to Canada, London and god knows where else with his new bird on the week before a game. Only to reappear on game night. If he wanted certain players to take training that is fair enough but he should at least be there and point them in the direction he wishes the team to go. That isnt good enough for someone who has obviously been after the role for some time. He wants the role, he does his best in it.

His signings, with the exception of Kurka, have sucked. And we are a laughing stock around the league.
 
#27
Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

I'd like to add the fact that our coach is able to take weeks off as he sees fit. If you're the coach at least attend training so when you are changing the lines around you have seen the performances of players throughout the week.

And the fact that with Pope heading to Sochi the coaching situation hasn't been resolved (in the press) as the only statement I recall was saying they asked Mac to do it, but he said he would rather not.
 

TheStub

Active Member
Thread starter #28
Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

I have no great problem with the coach getting the team to run training, that has been standard for us for a while I believe. But when there is a backlash about how unseemly this is, you'd expect the club to make at least a cosmetic change to improve the situation.

I think that what annoys me the most is the poor image they give out.
 

Ocko

Well-Known Member
#29
Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

TheStub said:
I have no great problem with the coach getting the team to run training, that has been standard for us for a while I believe. But when there is a backlash about how unseemly this is, you'd expect the club to make at least a cosmetic change to improve the situation.

I think that what annoys me the most is the poor image they give out.
The team running training is fine by me, it happens in many other sports too. But you would at least expect the Head Coach to be around. Not in another country all week and then turning up on game day. It's like Pope wants the prestige of being a head coach without putting in any graft.
 

TheStub

Active Member
Thread starter #30
Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Ocko said:
The team running training is fine by me, it happens in many other sports too. But you would at least expect the Head Coach to be around. Not in another country all week and then turning up on game day. It's like Pope wants the prestige of being a head coach without putting in any graft.
If the hat fits...

...I'll get my coat.
 

Ocko

Well-Known Member
#31
Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

TheStub said:
Ocko said:
The team running training is fine by me, it happens in many other sports too. But you would at least expect the Head Coach to be around. Not in another country all week and then turning up on game day. It's like Pope wants the prestige of being a head coach without putting in any graft.
If the hat fits...

...I'll get my coat.
:lol:
 

TheStub

Active Member
Thread starter #32
Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Ocko said:
The team running training is fine by me, it happens in many other sports too. But you would at least expect the Head Coach to be around. Not in another country all week and then turning up on game day. It's like Pope wants the prestige of being a head coach without putting in any graft.
Ignoring the actuality, it would be so easy to save some face by mandating Pope stays around to coach. Regardless about what actually happens, take away the easy attack vector.
 
#33
Out with the old in with the new

We shouldnt live in past I dont care how long a player has been at a club if its for the clubs benefit then I think it has to be done. Take the Ottawa senators for example they got rid of an old servant to the club and brought in a second overall pick player who has scored thirty goals.
People may say its not for clubs benefit how does anyone know that??? let these gys play and if it dont work out then Brent will start afresh next season

Myers was not good enough and I think Matt Myers will retire, so it just means we have matts salary for next year. Phill Hill, Joe and cook all werent needed any more we brought in a new good goalie fine thats ok phill i bet was on a large contract so out with him, we then signed Kura :pickle new type of player. prefer him to Hill anyday... However i do miss an enforcer and i think Conboy could have been our fan favourite for years to come, i miss the game changing fight or hit but we still have players who can do that. But im having a positive attitude as I think our signings could be good:))) and better than being short benched.

I dont see why people are being negative we have a full roster... Yes we may have treated badly but as fans how do we know that just be happy that we are signing players. Semi final of the cup Come on people get behind them
 
#37
Re: Out with the old in with the new

right... thats a bad thing... just wanted to express my opinion... on a devils fan forum you know the best fans in the league... that welcome opini... oh wait
 
#38
Re: Message from Joe Myers

Baz-lar said:
TheStub said:
Paul Sullivan said:
Interesting that you would group those who oppose the management into an equal footing as they are in terms of 'working to destroy' the team (probably should have said 'Club'?).
I would, because that is how this theatre is playing out. Battle lines are drawn, trenches dug and views now held firm. Rhetoric is now in the ascendancy, and sides must be taken. It is classic politics, as one side moves in one direction the other must pull against it to preserve their own platform and create a choice.

Paul Sullivan said:
If you think that the opposition of the mistreatment of the players is a deliberate attempt to destroy the Cardiff Devils on anywhere near the scale of the callous, inept treatment they (players) have received by the Devils I would be interested to read how you qualify that?
Nicely done Paul. You've built a great rhetorical trap. I can now post that I'm with those who oppose this callous mistreatment of players, or that I am done ogre who wants to see these poor young boys out on the street.

When the truth is, Paul, I am neither.

It may be my autistic side, but I see very little to go postal over.

Provided contracts have been honoured people have been treated in exactly the way they agreed to be when they signed.

G is probably the major case in point here. That while thing was badly handled. By both parties. The club should have handled it better, but personally I can't help thinking it was the correct hockey decision at the wrong time.

Now that is my view on the hockey, not the man, not the contract, not the negotiation - but the hockey.
Paul Sullivan said:
Opposing the shafting of players, apparently, now equates to being the equal of those who shaft the players? Confusing.
Yet more rhetoric.

I didn't say that, you are the one building that entrenched gulf from the words I wrote. But it is interesting to see what you are doing. You are building an emotional charged argument onto my words which men something else. That then allows you to put me in the other camp and discredit me as a player hater.

I'm not. I don't like the way we have been chopping and changing, but I am pleased that we are working to cover injury mid season. A lot of it makes me wonder if Pope had lost the room, and then I look on here and social media and wonder if Pope had a lot of help in that.
Paul Sullivan said:
The upcoming protest has been, for example, far from dogmatic. It is merely an outlet for anyone who is frustrated, sad or disappointed in the management of the Club this season to express their dissatisfaction.
Great. Protest. That is your right, and making a statement to the club is a good way of showing them that the confusing, mixed, PR and player movements is upsetting the fan base, fickle as they are.

Out of interest, what is the objective? What is our "mission complete" point. When I'm there with my placard and you shout "what do we want" what am I replying?
Paul Sullivan said:
And contrary to whatever Jimmy, Gazza and a couple of others post / tweet, there are more than just one or two 'bitter/power hungry egomaniacs' (tm) who are unhappy with recent developments.
I think there are various degrees of unhappy. Some are unhappy that their hobby is being spoiled a bit, some are incensed by the team that they live having it's great and soul ripped out.

Some, like me, prefer to view the whole general mishmash see the shades of grey and make objective decisions about things as they go past.

Just because I'm not stood with you does not mean I'm stood opposed to you. I'm just saying you have to try better than rhetoric to shift me from my (internally) reasoned argument.
Paul Sullivan said:
The only dogmatic / propaganda style communications thus far have been from the Club itself.
Here we will have to disagree. I've seen lots of dogma and propaganda in both directions.

I will admit, many of the clubs communications make me wonder at the level of functional literacy from the people that wrote it. I am often more saddened by the unprofessional face the club presents.

+1 well said TheStub
+2 plenty to agree with there
 

Paul Sullivan

Well-Known Member
#40
Re: My Bumper Cardiff Devils debate thread for boys (and gir

Following a lengthy and enjoyable debate with the Stub today via DM I attempted to put as rational a list of my own reasons together as I could. To wit:

Why are we protesting?

It is a common, now officially promoted line that this is a personal vendetta for me. Damn right its personal. This is a Club I have loved for 25 years, not raped for 3. Its VERY personal. Nowhere since the Club went in a different direction have I posted animosity about my personal situation. No tweets, no inferno posts, nothing. This is not sour grapes and I do not want any kind of role in this organisation 'moving forwards'. I did exactly this once before when our owner pushed us to breaking point. I am merely doing what I feel is right for the Club that I love. To believe otherwise is a lazy assumption based on spoon-fed information.
I have not and do not comment on the match night or Devils TV content other than when my own work was used against the Club's own promise. I know how hard it is to try and put on a good show.

5 years working with the Club is a very small part of my time as a Devil, and I hope my 25 years will allow me to be able to fight for something I love based on merit, not on the fictional motive created by a man who thinks he can, and has, done no wrong.

I can only speak for myself but the overall dissatisfaction and reasons for protest extend to:

The treatment of Phil Hill and the cowardly way it was managed.

The treatment of Gerad Adams which, when fuller details are made known (which I am well informed is likely to happen very soon, from an unimpeachable source) will very likely sicken many many fans.

Andrew Conboy. Promised a 2 year contract, to be made franchise player going into the new arena. The next Brad Voth. Sacked within a week, after a public statement that he would remain a Cardiff Devil.

Joe Myers. As loyal a servant and valuable a team-mate as has been seen in a Devils jersey. With no warning, no respect and no justifiable reason he is discarded like leftovers when he has answered the bell every time he was asked.

The Coaching situation in general. The ridiculous okey-cokey need a coach / have a coach / don't need a coach / don't want to be coach / am coach / no news about a coach farce would make PG Wodehouse's head spin. Which leads to:

The PR disaster that is the Cardiff Devils. You may have noticed a pattern above. It's not about the action, it's about the execution. Respect. Honour. Loyalty. Professionalism. These are words that have been demonstrably alien to the current powers that be. The actions have been shabby and amateur but the public displays of incompetence, primary school writing capability, self aggrandising video drivel and a total, utter and unshakeable belief that nothing has been done even a little poorly (except not firing someone earlier) has made the entire league look at Devils fans, cock their heads and say, 'Awwwwww, bless the poor little loves.' We've been made a source of pity, because ridicule was a long time ago.

The lies. Conboy being a prime example. Brent saying he never wanted to be Coach. He has confessed that he does to several people, including me, for several years.

The disgraceful treatment of several sponsors. Insults, false accusations, lack of attention and disregard for their input.

Comments made to fans via personal and official social media accounts. 'Cretins' 'Sheffield in disguise' 'not true / real Devils fans' and more.

Financial issues. Record ST money. Record sponsorship. Expenses payments to players being confirmed by Brent as being 4 months late, and for thousands of pounds.

The recruitment fiasco. More goalies than a Stevie Lyle camp. Forwards when we need a Dman. Dmen when we need forwards. Arbitrary hiring of additional imports when there is a history of being short at this time. Which leads to the latest and very nasty reason I shall be outside.

In the season they fired a Coach in his testimonial. In the year they fired a guy they were grooming to be our marquee player and in the year they disrespected and fired a loyal hometown goalie, information has been received from several sources around the League that there are 4, and as many as 5, current Devils Import players - all North American - who the Club want to be rid of in the VERY near future. Players who have served us with distinction. Players with huge events upcoming in their lives. Players who are studying here.

Player movements are a part of sport. The manner of them is a matter of professionalism and respect. The only conceivable reason for the additional and rapid intake of our recent signings can be a massive cost-cutting exercise.

These players were promised their contracts would be honoured. They were told there would be no more roster changes. They have placed their careers and part of their futures in the hands of our Club.

So I am sorry for the lengthy post. I feel strongly about this but I have tried to be as cold as I can here. I had a long conversation today with someone who said if I listed my reasons and they made sense he might even join me. So these are mine, and they are heartfelt.

I protest that they may be given what they were promised.
I protest that there will be no more shabby treatment as I have listed above
I protest to illustrate that you should not be able to behave like this as temporary stewards of our once proud Club.

And I protest because I hope with all my heart that we can rid ourselves of this management and finally, mercifully and in unison, look towards our potentially thrilling future with renewed hope.

Yours in hockey

Paul.
 
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