Council to buy ice rink Bro Radio

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Mazzoak

Well-Known Member
#81
Taken from the Cabinet meeting on the 18th March 2021.

“New facilities could be managed in conjunction with the International Pool, Ice Arena and CIWW under a singular brand giving customers easier access to a wider range of activities. As part of the development of the business case it is proposed to undertake a soft-marketing exercise to determine the level of interest in operating the site as a destination and to confirm the level of income/rent that could be generated to support the business plan.”
 

Finny

Well-Known Member
#82
The current Welsh Government is led by a strong Climate Aware leadership who are looking to make Wales leader on Climate Change Policy and renewable energy, apparently. There main scope seems to be on removal of harmful pollutants, such as limiting car usage, not building large car networks, reducing speed limits and implementation of fines, increasing costs for businesses etc etc, not so great on new initiatives, so far.......
Now will owning and running a massive freezer at a time that energy costs are increasing for the use of a few thousand hockey fans and a few hundred regular skaters fall into their Climate Crisis solutions portfolio, I’m thinking not unless they can find a way to maintain an ice surface using free energy efficient, carbon neutral cheap solution.
Wales only other ice rink that has a Curling Club is in North Wales, in England, I’ve no idea, is there a demand in South Wales that would make a dedicated Curling Rink viable, not sure. Interestingly Curling requires the ice surface to be Pebbled by water droplets freezing, it’s why in Canada for instance curling is not done on Ice rinks used for skating, here though the need for such detail is lacking, nobody cares as it’s mainly recreational, not competing. The ice is also difficult to maintain as it needs to be so level and temperature is critical, far more than for skating and ice hockey.
My interpretation is that the Welsh Government will hike prices, significantly to such a level the IAW will slowly loose appeal, become redundant and the land then reused for redevelopment. I very much doubt the IAW is financially viable at the moment, it could be if the Devils paid for the use, is that financial hit then an issue for the viability of the Devils, does the 3000 average ticket sales per game cover the increase in costs or would the Devils need to find savings. Since the Devils Business is only a name and a few grand in equipment, it’s biggest costs are player wages & travel. That means either profits need to drop or player budget or worse both. That then brings in player Catch 22, when player quality drops, attendance levels drop.....
The Council received a substancial EU grant for the IAW, the scheme funded the huge costs involved in reclaiming industrial land that could viably be used for housing. The building of the IAW and other “Sports Facilities” allowed for that cost to be met, very clever.
So yes if Mr King or any other businessmen got their black cards out and bought the IAW and surrounding land I’d be confident as it shows there is viability and potential growth. The fact the Council is going to purchase from Greenbank, not so much, if this was Dragons Den it’d be leaving without a deal......
An interesting post.

And by 'interesting' I mean that it's interesting that you appear happy to contradict yourself and facts to push forward your own opinion and agenda.
I'm sure there are those from SORAC who will remember the details better than me, but from what I can remember:
-The EU did indeed give Cardiff Council a big grant to reclaim land from the bay. However, that land had to be used for sport recreation - hence the Sports Village. I very much doubt that any such agreement would have allowed the land to be reused so soon. 25 years as a minimum surely?

You also say the Welsh Government will hike prices. Why would the WG hike prices when it is Cardiff Council looking to buy it? And what prices are they going to hike?
One of the agreements for the Devils moving out of the WNIR was that they would get free ice time in the new arena. So whether it is WG or CCC that is not possible.

And whilst it's trendy to claim that Cardiff Council are only interested in building houses - that doesn't seem to be the case when you actually look at what is going on.
In North Cardiff the council are about to cancel plans to build more houses and retail on the old Tax Office to instead build a new school.
The land that is earmarked for the new Concert Arena is within walking distance to town. They could surely more money off it by turning it into flats than into an arena?
And even if we ignore all that and assume they are desperate to build more houses in the Sports Village - why would they want to knock down IAW to do so?
They've got the land which Toys R US was on. And it's car park. And the big waste land between IAW and Morrisions. And the waste land behind the car park.
There is loads of land to build more houses down there. Knocking down IAW to build more houses when there is already space down there is madness.

For some time now one of the council's biggest aims is to bring more people into the city. It's why they try to attract big sports events. It's why they pushed and pushed to get the likes of Ikea and John Lewis into the city.
IAW is a unique attraction in the South Wales and South West area. Just last month it was making headlines because it was closed.
To suggest the council would want that negative publicity x100 is absolute madness.
 

Kevlar68

Well-Known Member
#83
Also apart from gyms what other sporting leisure activities are there in cardiff?
Forget the pitches and leisure centres around cardiff I mean purpose built sporting leisure activities.
Cardiff needs as many places as possible just for the fact to give the children an option of things to do and families somewhere to go for a day out within cardiff.
Plenty of waste land, nearly empty industrial estates the council could develop.
 
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Mazzoak

Well-Known Member
#84
An interesting post.

And by 'interesting' I mean that it's interesting that you appear happy to contradict yourself and facts to push forward your own opinion and agenda.
I'm sure there are those from SORAC who will remember the details better than me, but from what I can remember:
-The EU did indeed give Cardiff Council a big grant to reclaim land from the bay. However, that land had to be used for sport recreation - hence the Sports Village. I very much doubt that any such agreement would have allowed the land to be reused so soon. 25 years as a minimum surely?
There will still be a Sports Village with or with out the IAW. The grant criteria was fulfilled. It’s no longer a consideration.

Cut & pasted the below from the meeting in March 2021.

In 2012, the Council entered into a long-term Development Agreement with Greenbank Partnership Limited (GPL) following a market procurement exercise. GBL put forward an exciting and comprehensive strategy for the redevelopment of the peninsula site covering their own Cardiff Pointe site and the Council’s Waterfront site. The Council’s principle priority at the time was to construct a new Ice Arena to replace the one demolished to make way for the St David’s 2 shopping centre, and to deliver a Snow-Dome attraction.
7. The Development Agreement involved the transfer of land from the Council to GPL on a 999 year lease in two phases as illustrated by the plan at Appendix 1: Phase One on committing to the Ice Arena development; and Phase Two on committing to the delivery of the Snow-Dome facility.
8. The cost of delivering the new Ice Arena far outweighed its anticipated commercial value. To ensure delivery of a state-of-the-art facility, the Council agreed to commute a proportion of s106 contributions and affordable housing contributions generated by the planning permission for residential development on the adjacent Cardiff Pointe site. To meet the Council’s aspirations, GPL decided to forward fund early delivery of the new Ice Rink in advance of residential sales on Cardiff Pointe.
9. GPL completed the Ice Arena development in 2016. They have also delivered 100 private residential properties on Cardiff Pointe and c150 units of affordable housing on adjacent sites. However, since 2018 further development has stalled.
10. The Council retains a significant land holding at the International Sports Village site illustrated by the ownership plan attached at Appendix 1. In March 2018, Cabinet provided authority to secure the freehold reversion of the former Toys R Us building including a large service yard and circa 300 car parking spaces. The rationale for the acquisition was to improve the development potential of the Council’s adjoining land holding known at Retail 3, as the former Toys R Us lease contained several covenants that affected the development potential of the Retail 3 site.
11. In October 2019, Cabinet approved a new strategic plan for completing the ISV development which involved repositioning the proposed leisure development on to lower value land to the rear of the site (former Toys R Us and Retail 3). This would help to establish a critical mass of leisure attractions by positioning new leisure facilities adjacent to the existing leisure facilities and would free up the Waterfront site for higher value residential-led mixed use development. Delivery of the plan was subject to reaching agreement with Greenbank regarding land interests in the area.


Issues

12. The Council and Greenbank have been engaged in dialogue over an extended period of time regarding their respective land interests, including the land subject to the Development Agreement. The Cardiff Pointe residential scheme is an important development in its own right, planned to deliver circa 850 new homes in the Local Development Plan. The Council remains keen for the next phase of construction to commence as soon as possible, not least to provide existing residents with certainty regarding the future of the site. The Council is in the process of negotiating a land transaction with Greenbank that will enable further development on the site to be accelerated and will return to Cabinet in the spring/early summer for authority to proceed, once draft terms are ready for approval.

Basically Greenbank haven’t earned enough money from the IAW and property to continue further housing developments. It’s been told a pile of .........ks.

You also say the Welsh Government will hike prices. Why would the WG hike prices when it is Cardiff Council looking to buy it? And what prices are they going to hike?
One of the agreements for the Devils moving out of the WNIR was that they would get free ice time in the new arena. So whether it is WG or CCC that is not possible.
All contracts in law can be broken, it’s more than possible. What would prevent such breach would be if financial penalties outweigh the benefits, even those penalties can be negotiated. I’m sorry, but to suggest it’s not possible to break agreements is a bit naive.
It’s dependent on feasibility studies. As for Welsh Government, it’s remit is the improvement of Green policies, it’s also Labour, as is Cardiff Council. Do you believe an unviable facility, in need of financial support, used by less than two thousand repeat users and a maybe a few thousand more unique visitors, in direct conflict with both the Welsh Government & Council environmentally obligations and philosophy would be justified if an alternative use can be made. I’m not so sure. The proposed 850 homes over looking the bay are expected to be high end. In what today appears to be an industrial site, with waste ground. No, what is planned is radically different, ironically the IAW saving grace is the Council’s inability to develop the ISV........hence the binning of the ski slope, the casino, the hotels, the parking, the retail. What they do well though is housing.

“Councillor Russell Goodway (Cabinet Member – Investment and Development) will be invited to make a statement. Neil Hanratty (Director of Economic Development), Chris Barnett (Operational Manager – Major Projects) and Jo Phillips (Project Manager) will attend to give a presentation and answer Members’ questions on the proposals.

All Members are reminded of the need to maintain confidentiality with regard to the information provided in Confidential Appendices 2-6. Members will be invited to agree the meeting go into closed session to enable discussion of this information”.

“A key aspect of the business plan will be the future operation of the facilities on-site and the ongoing maintenance of landscaping and public realm. Prior to the pandemic a number of operators/providers showed interest in developing a destination experience at the ISV. Most of these discussions were around developing a wider offer bringing in further adventure experiences such as rock climbing, sky-diving, indoor skiing (conveyor belt), zip-wire alongside new e- sport experiences. New facilities could be managed in conjunction with the International Pool, Ice Arena and CIWW under a singular brand giving customers easier access to a wider range of activities. As part of the development of the business case it is proposed to undertake a soft-marketing exercise to determine the level of interest in operating the site as a destination and to confirm the level of income/rent that could be generated to support the business plan.”


And whilst it's trendy to claim that Cardiff Council are only interested in building houses - that doesn't seem to be the case when you actually look at what is going on.
In North Cardiff the council are about to cancel plans to build more houses and retail on the old Tax Office to instead build a new school.
The land that is earmarked for the new Concert Arena is within walking distance to town. They could surely more money off it by turning it into flats than into an arena?
And even if we ignore all that and assume they are desperate to build more houses in the Sports Village - why would they want to knock down IAW to do so?
They've got the land which Toys R US was on. And it's car park. And the big waste land between IAW and Morrisions. And the waste land behind the car park.
There is loads of land to build more houses down there. Knocking down IAW to build more houses when there is already space down there is madness.

Did l state it was for new houses ?

“The former Toys R Us building (circa 40k sq ft) will be retained and refurbished to create an attractive and valuable commercial retail asset. The intention is to attract a large format bicycle retail store to complement the Velodrome and the closed-loop circuit. There will also be adequate space within the building to accommodate an additional leisure attraction”.

“The existing Ice Rink has the potential to be extended at the rear to complete the development. A new attraction could be provided as part of a review of the facility to improve its overall commercial viability and long-term sustainability. Ideally, the attraction would make use of the plant and machinery already available within the Ice Arena. This will be brought forward on a commercial basis”.

Obviously any review would need to provide evidence to justify the costing, remember the recent plans are for the Velodrome only and no funding is currently available to build it.




For some time now one of the council's biggest aims is to bring more people into the city. It's why they try to attract big sports events. It's why they pushed and pushed to get the likes of Ikea and John Lewis into the city.
IAW is a unique attraction in the South Wales and South West area. Just last month it was making headlines because it was closed.
To suggest the council would want that negative publicity x100 is absolute madness.
The Council has moved to a more Green looking Sports Village, with emphasis on improving green space for residents. There has been complaints from residents. There also looking at more Green Sports, particularly “Urban Sports” such as cycling, skate boarding, rock climbing, zip line.

To give you some idea Swansea Leisure Centre has an income £3.1 million, expenditure £3.58 million, visitor numbers (including repeat visits) 630,273. Most leisure facilities run by Councils cost more to run than they generate in income, the Golden Ticket is users, it’s justified to allocate funds to continue supporting them. What changes is the cost v users v justifiability. In my opinion the IAW is the least likely to remain. Am l right, time will tell.

“Olympian Drive to be reduced, and subsequently eliminated once an adequate alternative access has been provided across the rear of the waterfront land to create an enhanced pedestrian environment at the heart of the leisure development. In particular, removal of the road will improve safe pedestrian connection between key facilities and establish a new all year-round external event space. Opportunities to improve biodiversity will be delivered through the proposed public realm improvement including the planting of trees, the introduction of pocket parks and the general greening of the area as appropriate”.
 
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Kevlar68

Well-Known Member
#85
Swansea council are millions in profit but it needs that leisure centre even at a loss.
Businesses through out time have loss leaders which mean who sell one thing at a loss only to generate profit from something else.
With Swansea leisure centre it brings people to the town centre, if it was not there it would lose thousands of people who enter the centre everyday who may go off from there and spend elsewhere.
So, even though it runs at a loss it is needed.
 

Mazzoak

Well-Known Member
#86
Swansea council are millions in profit but it needs that leisure centre even at a loss.
Businesses through out time have loss leaders which mean who sell one thing at a loss only to generate profit from something else.
With Swansea leisure centre it brings people to the town centre, if it was not there it would lose thousands of people who enter the centre everyday who may go off from there and spend elsewhere.
So, even though it runs at a loss it is needed.
The same with Cardiff International Pool, the CIWW and the IAW. It’s all about money and limiting those costs and spreading the liability across as many as possible.
 

Finny

Well-Known Member
#87
There will still be a Sports Village with or with out the IAW. The grant criteria was fulfilled. It’s no longer a consideration.

Cut & pasted the below from the meeting in March 2021.

In 2012, the Council entered into a long-term Development Agreement with Greenbank Partnership Limited (GPL) following a market procurement exercise. GBL put forward an exciting and comprehensive strategy for the redevelopment of the peninsula site covering their own Cardiff Pointe site and the Council’s Waterfront site. The Council’s principle priority at the time was to construct a new Ice Arena to replace the one demolished to make way for the St David’s 2 shopping centre, and to deliver a Snow-Dome attraction.
7. The Development Agreement involved the transfer of land from the Council to GPL on a 999 year lease in two phases as illustrated by the plan at Appendix 1: Phase One on committing to the Ice Arena development; and Phase Two on committing to the delivery of the Snow-Dome facility.
8. The cost of delivering the new Ice Arena far outweighed its anticipated commercial value. To ensure delivery of a state-of-the-art facility, the Council agreed to commute a proportion of s106 contributions and affordable housing contributions generated by the planning permission for residential development on the adjacent Cardiff Pointe site. To meet the Council’s aspirations, GPL decided to forward fund early delivery of the new Ice Rink in advance of residential sales on Cardiff Pointe.
9. GPL completed the Ice Arena development in 2016. They have also delivered 100 private residential properties on Cardiff Pointe and c150 units of affordable housing on adjacent sites. However, since 2018 further development has stalled.
10. The Council retains a significant land holding at the International Sports Village site illustrated by the ownership plan attached at Appendix 1. In March 2018, Cabinet provided authority to secure the freehold reversion of the former Toys R Us building including a large service yard and circa 300 car parking spaces. The rationale for the acquisition was to improve the development potential of the Council’s adjoining land holding known at Retail 3, as the former Toys R Us lease contained several covenants that affected the development potential of the Retail 3 site.
11. In October 2019, Cabinet approved a new strategic plan for completing the ISV development which involved repositioning the proposed leisure development on to lower value land to the rear of the site (former Toys R Us and Retail 3). This would help to establish a critical mass of leisure attractions by positioning new leisure facilities adjacent to the existing leisure facilities and would free up the Waterfront site for higher value residential-led mixed use development. Delivery of the plan was subject to reaching agreement with Greenbank regarding land interests in the area.


Issues

12. The Council and Greenbank have been engaged in dialogue over an extended period of time regarding their respective land interests, including the land subject to the Development Agreement. The Cardiff Pointe residential scheme is an important development in its own right, planned to deliver circa 850 new homes in the Local Development Plan. The Council remains keen for the next phase of construction to commence as soon as possible, not least to provide existing residents with certainty regarding the future of the site. The Council is in the process of negotiating a land transaction with Greenbank that will enable further development on the site to be accelerated and will return to Cabinet in the spring/early summer for authority to proceed, once draft terms are ready for approval.

Basically Greenbank haven’t earned enough money from the IAW and property to continue further housing developments. It’s been told a pile of .........ks.



All contracts in law can be broken, it’s more than possible. What would prevent such breach would be if financial penalties outweigh the benefits, even those penalties can be negotiated. I’m sorry, but to suggest it’s not possible to break agreements is a bit naive.
It’s dependent on feasibility studies. As for Welsh Government, it’s remit is the improvement of Green policies, it’s also Labour, as is Cardiff Council. Do you believe an unviable facility, in need of financial support, used by less than two thousand repeat users and a maybe a few thousand more unique visitors, in direct conflict with both the Welsh Government & Council environmentally obligations and philosophy would be justified if an alternative use can be made. I’m not so sure. The proposed 850 homes over looking the bay are expected to be high end. In what today appears to be an industrial site, with waste ground. No, what is planned is radically different, ironically the IAW saving grace is the Council’s inability to develop the ISV........hence the binning of the ski slope, the casino, the hotels, the parking, the retail. What they do well though is housing.

“Councillor Russell Goodway (Cabinet Member – Investment and Development) will be invited to make a statement. Neil Hanratty (Director of Economic Development), Chris Barnett (Operational Manager – Major Projects) and Jo Phillips (Project Manager) will attend to give a presentation and answer Members’ questions on the proposals.

All Members are reminded of the need to maintain confidentiality with regard to the information provided in Confidential Appendices 2-6. Members will be invited to agree the meeting go into closed session to enable discussion of this information”.

“A key aspect of the business plan will be the future operation of the facilities on-site and the ongoing maintenance of landscaping and public realm. Prior to the pandemic a number of operators/providers showed interest in developing a destination experience at the ISV. Most of these discussions were around developing a wider offer bringing in further adventure experiences such as rock climbing, sky-diving, indoor skiing (conveyor belt), zip-wire alongside new e- sport experiences. New facilities could be managed in conjunction with the International Pool, Ice Arena and CIWW under a singular brand giving customers easier access to a wider range of activities. As part of the development of the business case it is proposed to undertake a soft-marketing exercise to determine the level of interest in operating the site as a destination and to confirm the level of income/rent that could be generated to support the business plan.”





Did l state it was for new houses ?

“The former Toys R Us building (circa 40k sq ft) will be retained and refurbished to create an attractive and valuable commercial retail asset. The intention is to attract a large format bicycle retail store to complement the Velodrome and the closed-loop circuit. There will also be adequate space within the building to accommodate an additional leisure attraction”.

“The existing Ice Rink has the potential to be extended at the rear to complete the development. A new attraction could be provided as part of a review of the facility to improve its overall commercial viability and long-term sustainability. Ideally, the attraction would make use of the plant and machinery already available within the Ice Arena. This will be brought forward on a commercial basis”.

Obviously any review would need to provide evidence to justify the costing, remember the recent plans are for the Velodrome only and no funding is currently available to build it.






The Council has moved to a more Green looking Sports Village, with emphasis on improving green space for residents. There has been complaints from residents. There also looking at more Green Sports, particularly “Urban Sports” such as cycling, skate boarding, rock climbing, zip line.

To give you some idea Swansea Leisure Centre has an income £3.1 million, expenditure £3.58 million, visitor numbers (including repeat visits) 630,273. Most leisure facilities run by Councils cost more to run than they generate in income, the Golden Ticket is users, it’s justified to allocate funds to continue supporting them. What changes is the cost v users v justifiability. In my opinion the IAW is the least likely to remain. Am l right, time will tell.

“Olympian Drive to be reduced, and subsequently eliminated once an adequate alternative access has been provided across the rear of the waterfront land to create an enhanced pedestrian environment at the heart of the leisure development. In particular, removal of the road will improve safe pedestrian connection between key facilities and establish a new all year-round external event space. Opportunities to improve biodiversity will be delivered through the proposed public realm improvement including the planting of trees, the introduction of pocket parks and the general greening of the area as appropriate”.
None of that backs up your argument that CCC/WG are going to know down IAW.
In fact if anything it does the exact opposite.
 

Mazzoak

Well-Known Member
#88
None of that backs up your argument that CCC/WG are going to know down IAW.
In fact if anything it does the exact opposite.
You’re spot on, except I’ve not said their going to knock it down and that’s not the point of anything I’ve written. It’s a building, they can be repurposed, you don’t need to knock it down. Ticket prices can be increased, rental payments for usage made and the IAW could remain the home of the Devils. This feels like I’m repeating myself, oh wait, that’s because............
Imagine, what if they decided instead to remove the current ice pad arena, seating tiers etc etc, keep the 2nd ice pad as the skating rink, remove everything in the main rink and turn it into say a Go Kart track, the gantry could be the pit stop..............or you knock down that rink section, retain the 2nd rink, and build a park with a small lake, some jogging and cycling lanes, Council does love a bicycle. Obviously these are my opinions, their not ideas of the Council & l can’t cut and paste anything to back up my claims. ;)

Would a park be less hassle & cost, or is the financial burden maintaining a rink for the sole purpose of a few Canadian based businessmen who are unwilling to pay for their own facility or is it time to take some of the costs from the Devils and use it to contribute towards the building of the velodrome.

That third option I mention above concerning the Velodrome is within the meeting notes I’ve copied and pasted. What I’ve cast doubt on is how much the IAW can contribute. The bit that’s being discussed but not mentioned here is covered by the Councils Confidential Appendix’s 1 - 6, as mentioned in the notes I’ve copied here, there confidential, their controversial and not in the interest of the public until a time they need to be.
 
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Mazzoak

Well-Known Member
#90
Hasn’t this crap run it’s course yet, pages and pages of wind up dribble, garbage that no one really wants to hear. Time to knock this Mickey Mouse post on the head Please.
The point is to be aware, not wind up......you were on SORAC, surely you remember, is it not better to prepare than live with ones head up ones arse.
 

Mazzoak

Well-Known Member
#92
But when I hear this crap on and on and on I feel like my head is definately up my arse, that’s exactly my point.
With all due respect l feel the same on most of what you write, but l respect your right to comment, so please respect mine. This is not your forum, club, house, you don’t make the rules, so refrain yourself from such acts.
 
#93
Mazzoak will be the death of this Forum as nobody will want to read such drivel.

Can I suggest an alternative competition to determine what is the cause of the bad blood between Mazzoak and the Devils/Andrew Lord. I will willingly put up the prize from my Devils memorabilia.
 

NathanG

Active Member
#94
Mazzoak will be the death of this Forum as nobody will want to read such drivel.

Can I suggest an alternative competition to determine what is the cause of the bad blood between Mazzoak and the Devils/Andrew Lord. I will willingly put up the prize from my Devils memorabilia.
I was going to write a very short theory on that but I've had second thoughts. Not many people have a sense of humour on here :')
 
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