Cardiff Bay “Masterplan” including a 15,000 seater arena!

[pjj365]

It’s always great to want to take your club to another level, we all want what’s best for our club, that’s the only reason our club still exists in fairness. But in reality no one in Council power gives a flying do da whether we exist or not, if it ain’t played with a egg, then forget it, we only exist due to two factors, our Amazing owners, and our Amazing fans, it’s us against the rest unfortunately. We have only been in the IAW 5 mins, it’s the best facility we have ever had let’s enjoy a few more seasons safely of course and cross the other bridges when they need crossing, we are far from being the poor relations of this league. Call the EIHL what you like it’s what we have and what we all need. Stay Safe all.

Whether an ice pad goes in will be very little to do with the council. It will be down to the operator unless an ice pad is a condition of planning

As the operator has been selected with no mention of hockey then it seems unlikely that such a condition will be imposed

So, an installation will be up to the operator who will do so only if they see a return on their investment within whatever time scale they use. Part of this calculation will be whether the Devils can sustain the rents which in turn means bums on seats and there is the problem.

I doubt that in the co!d light odor day any of us would believe that we could guarantee (say) 5000+ every Sat and Sun during the season

 

[kingmo19.1]

Personally, I think we’ve already hit our limit at the IAW - it can’t be expanded from what I can see and it was a mistake to build a 2 pad facility where the footprint could have accommodated a far bigger 1 pad arena. But hey ho that’s history ...

If we were able to get a pad into this new arena and it’s capacity was 9,000 - 10,000 I wouldn’t be surprised to see us hitting 4,500 - 5,000 in season 1.

Normally new venues drive increase fan bases (build it and the will come mentality) - look at Swansea at the Liberty, Cardiff City at the Cardiff City Stadium and even us in the IAW. With Todd at the helm I’m sure he could drive additional attendances.

With the new arena being easier to get to, I think you can bank on a good 400-500 additional walk up tickets and even more as the bay is subsequently improved.

Obviously the figures would need to stack up but what an opportunity if such a facility is being constructed on our doorstep!

 

[Ocko]

So shall we look at some of the facts here.
Cardiff Devils were established in 1986, they have been a fully functioning team for now 34 years.
At one point British ice hockey Finals were live on main stream terrestrial TV , we had a Super league on Sky Sports and we would have sometimes a full page in the sports section of the South Wales Echo with Terry Phillips writing it who would attend most matches at the WNIR .
During this period of high tv exposure of the team we had a capacity at the WNIR of 2800 and only 2/3 of a season were sell outs.
Now we have a 3,100 capacity arena with very little main stream TV exposure, even with the welsh news we're a foot note on ITV and again from what I've seen maybe 2/3 of a season are sell outs.
So the question is where do those extra 2,900 fans come from of a 6000 arena?
If we haven't been able to build up the numbers over 34 years with better exposure than we have now how are we going to gain that 2,900 fans needed?
That's nearly double the fan base that goes to the IAW now.

The extra fans come from a good marketing strategy. In IAW, BBT and WNIR we were limited in what we could offer to customers through the door. We can’t offer mass free tickets, bring a mate for a fiver and so on because we’ve never had the seats available to be able to do it and also didn’t have the season ticket numbers we see now.

As I’ve said previously out fan base probably sits around the 4k mark - clearly not die hards but fans who have an interest in the team. That pool of fans will never increase whilst in IAW as we just don’t have the space, and also what is the point when we are at capacity for the vast majority of league games anyway. We have already peaked in terms of getting fans through the door and I doubt it has taken a massive effort on a marketing front. Todd could easily gather the support to increase crowds - he just hasn’t had to yet.

To be involved in a project like this is a once in a generation opportunity. IAW will still exist, I don’t believe it needs the Devils from a financial perspective, so it isn’t like we are going to lose it. In terms of capacity we are still behind - Sheffield, Belfast, Nottingham, Glasgow, Fife and only 200 bigger than Coventry. It’s hardly like we’re trying to fill the Principality Stadium.

 

[moggy#9]

Not comparing it then to now BUT the Venue move did do more harm than good.

But you can't consider that in isolation. There were other factors at play too

Personally, I think we’ve already hit our limit at the IAW - it can’t be expanded from what I can see and it was a mistake to build a 2 pad facility where the footprint could have accommodated a far bigger 1 pad arena. But hey ho that’s history ...

If we were able to get a pad into this new arena and it’s capacity was 9,000 - 10,000 I wouldn’t be surprised to see us hitting 4,500 - 5,000 in season 1.

Normally new venues drive increase fan bases (build it and the will come mentality) - look at Swansea at the Liberty, Cardiff City at the Cardiff City Stadium and even us in the IAW. With Todd at the helm I’m sure he could drive additional attendances.

With the new arena being easier to get to, I think you can bank on a good 400-500 additional walk up tickets and even more as the bay is subsequently improved.

Obviously the figures would need to stack up but what an opportunity if such a facility is being constructed on our doorstep!

I disagree about the two pads being a mistake. From what I gather getting ice time a a civilized hour is still a problem for our rec teams and skating clubs. This seems to be a bit of a "build it and they will come" scenario. Whilst a 4 rink complex, like one I once played in in Montreal, wouldn't be practical, two ice pads is now a necessity for us.

 

[kingmo19.1]

As muttered in the first few minutes of the classic film Twin Town ...... via Greyo to Terry outside Swansea Train Station :-

Ambition is critical

 

[kingmo19.1]

But you can't consider that in isolation. There were other factors at play too
I disagree about the two pads being a mistake. From what I gather getting ice time a a civilized hour is still a problem for our rec teams and skating clubs. This seems to be a bit of a "build it and they will come" scenario. Whilst a 4 rink complex, like one I once played in in Montreal, wouldn't be practical, two ice pads is now a necessity for us.

IAW Pad 2 - the most under utilised utility this side of London! If you frequent the rink on a regular basis you’ll see the lights on but that’s about it!

 

[Kevlar68]

So now we look at Cardiff Blues ground share with City, they were expecting numbers to increase and didn't, the attendances stayed roughly the same and games at the stadium with the same in attendance as at arms park looked terrible.

I do get it, we all want the fan base to increase and get better crowds but at what cost? Is it better the Devil we know or change and fail (maybe).

 

[Ocko]

So now we look at Cardiff Blues ground share with City, they were expecting numbers to increase and didn't, the attendances stayed roughly the same and games at the stadium with the same in attendance as at arms park looked terrible.

I do get it, we all want the fan base to increase and get better crowds but at what cost? Is it better the Devil we know or change and fail (maybe).

The Blues crowds increased upon moving to CCS. On average they were over 10k in their first season, something they cannot get now. So it proves the point that a bigger and better venue does help crowds.

The Blues are a bad example though; they have deep rooted issues with their fan base because of the regionalised rugby set up. No one has ever warmed to them from the Cardiff RFC days and they certainly have no interest outside of Cardiff. They are also a pretty poor side with their ‘star’ players missing most of the season.

The Blues failed for many reasons but they did have a few huge crowds by Welsh region standards - over 20k watched a few derby matches. We could have the option of two venues depending on the game so again would be able to mitigate the crowd fluctuation.

IAW will remain so if it is not financially viable and doesn’t work, we could always move back or use both. So what is it you are worried about?

 

[pjj365]

IAW Pad 2 - the most under utilised utility this side of London! If you frequent the rink on a regular basis you’ll see the lights on but that’s about it!

Re. Hockey, training sessions - all on the main pad I think. NIHL hockey. Would this continue at IAW. Would IAW be viable without game night concessions

I don't the answers but it is one more step along the way of working out viability is a move were contemplated

 

[Kevlar68]

If we move from IAW and then IAW gets hit financially that venue would have to change or ground get used for something else.
Then we could be stuck in a arena that is costing us allot more on outgoings but income doesn't increase to the level we need to sustain our time at the new venue, then what happens?
No IAW to return to and the larger venue isn't financially better, what's the answer then?
Build another arena? It took long enough for this one or fold the team?
I myself enjoy our hockey, the team we have are pretty much i think the best you would get coming to these shores, a bigger venue isn't going to attract bigger name players due to what the league is.
Until you can show without a doubt that there is actually a higher demand of people wanting to watch the Devils then I would hold off on a move.
Demand needs to be there first and at the moment we haven't got ticket touts outside the arena selling off sold out games.
Look at the games we've had in a 3,100 capacity arena where schools and groups have been comped out to make up numbers.

 

[Ocko]

If the Devils don’t pay rent for games and training would IAW really take that much of a hit if they didn’t have games there? Plenty of other rinks also do just fine without a professional men’s team playing out of it so I don’t see how IAW would be any different.

The demand isnt there right now for a big arena as we have no way of building a fan base outside of our current core fans, nothing can really be done to build it without an opportunity to get people through the door on a mass scale.

Compare the move from the BBT to IAW; we sold out very few games there and your argument is technically the same in that respect. Why did we go for 3.1k seats when we very rarely sold out 2.3k. Suddenly we found over a 1k more fans within a few months, a little marketing, success on the ice and a shiny new venue drawing interest. A new arena would do the same.

You enjoying your hockey and thinking the team is the best you’ve seen is largely irrelevant. This is a business and every business needs to look to grow. We aren’t a non-profit community team and I’m sure Todd would like nothing more than the team earning more money - not a knock on him but in an ideal world I’m sure he wouldn’t want to turn down the chance to make a few more quid for his own future.

 

[Kevlar68]

So we're saying the IAW would just be a skating rink and nothing more if the devils were to leave.
With that in mind food and beverage income at the IAW would be non existent with just pubic skating sessions, the numbers are down on attendance compared to the WNIR due to the location and the upkeep for the building I would think is quite substantial , so yes I think without the hockey there the IAW would be financial strained.

As for the BBT tent being 2.3K and finding 1K more fans once moving to IAW that's wrong I'm sorry to say, the fans were already there to begin with as WNIR held 2,800 and was 3/4 sold out for the season, in reality the Devils lost 500 fans with the move. So it means they only gained 300 fans if we're going with numbers of full attendance.
I had watched the Devils since 86 and worked with them at the WNIR but when they moved to the BBT i didn't go to one game because of the location and i hadn't heard good reviews on the venue so i gave it a miss.
Since the IAW opened i have been to almost all the home games when i'm back home in the UK. So i'm one of those extra fans who didn't go to the BBT but went to WNIR.

 

[pjj365]

Any one care what happens to the 5 other teams that play out IAW plus all other activities. Training figure skating etc. etc

 

[Kevlar68]

Pjj365 is there funding for them or do they pay themselves as in subscriptions, training fees etc I know that they do need the IAW but them alone couldn't keep it going so the Devils staying there would be a great help to them.

Also its good i think for the Devils to have a permanent home which is only theirs instead of a multi purpose arena, this may inspire more youngsters to take up hockey knowing they could play on the same ice as their heroes have played on.

 

[Wannabe2]

Any one care what happens to the 5 other teams that play out IAW plus all other activities. Training figure skating etc. etc

Without the support of all these organisations there wouldn’t be a IAW, and we wouldn’t now be having this conversation, never forget that.

 

[Ocko]

There are only 7 rinks in the UK which house EIHL teams, the other arenas in the EIHL don’t have the other users in them. The rest of the rinks in the UK don’t have pro hockey. If IAW would be so doomed financially without the Devils how has every other rink, bar those 7, survived? So I would be pretty confident it would be just fine without the Devils (who don’t even pay).

@Kevlar68 The fans you mention who were lost when the WNIR closed didn’t sit at home waiting for IAW to be built, most of them were lost and didn’t return. Im also sure our average attendance was below 2k for many years in the WNIR prior to its closure. Most of the fans on top of the BBT are new ones. And the Devils fan base doesn’t just go as far as the 3.1k that happen to be in the rink at any one night. There are many more hundred who for many reasons don’t happen to be there. We have easily increased our footprint in Cardiff by over 1k fans since moving in IAW.

 

[Kevlar68]

I can only speak for myself not the others but I didn't sit at home waiting, I just didn't go to the BBT, I didn't know what was going to happen in the future and when IAW was built I went back but I kept myself informed on how the Devils got on every week when home was the BBT as I'm sure others like myself may have done.
You can't say "most of them were lost and didn't return" as you don't know that and I am one of those who did return.
Also you got to take in to account how many of the new fans are children, many are children of existing fans not all new fans, so no one can really determine how many new fans there are since the IAW, I can't say they're all returning and you can't say they're all new.

We both have our own opinions on numbers and fan base and when and where but it all means nothing really, we are where we are, the IAW.

The new venue isn't even in the infant building stage yet and before even its considered as a venue for the Devils they'd have to include plans to have a pad and if they don't then we stick with 3,100 fans and even if they did put in a rink for Disney on ice, Dancing on Ice Tour and such like, would the deal be right for the Devils financially anyway?

So no matter when this arena gets completed we have years in the IAW yet and before even that we need a season and then a team, but it is good to dream.

 

[pjj365]

Pjj365 is there funding for them or do they pay themselves as in subscriptions, training fees etc I know that they do need the IAW but them alone couldn't keep it going so the Devils staying there would be a great help to them.

Also its good i think for the Devils to have a permanent home which is only theirs instead of a multi purpose arena, this may inspire more youngsters to take up hockey knowing they could play on the same ice as their heroes have played on.

No idea about their finances - but Fire are one of the 5 and another is the Uni team and there is a ladies team
More importantly I'd forgotten the junior teams - they need preserving

 

[Wannabe2]

No idea about their finances - but Fire are one of the 5 and another is the Uni team and there is a ladies team
More importantly I'd forgotten the junior teams - they need preserving

All users of the IAW need preserving, we got what we got by being together, we all needed each other.

 

[moggy#9]

There are only 7 rinks in the UK which house EIHL teams, the other arenas in the EIHL don’t have the other users in them. The rest of the rinks in the UK don’t have pro hockey. If IAW would be so doomed financially without the Devils how has every other rink, bar those 7, survived? So I would be pretty confident it would be just fine without the Devils (who don’t even pay).

@Kevlar68 The fans you mention who were lost when the WNIR closed didn’t sit at home waiting for IAW to be built, most of them were lost and didn’t return. Im also sure our average attendance was below 2k for many years in the WNIR prior to its closure. Most of the fans on top of the BBT are new ones. And the Devils fan base doesn’t just go as far as the 3.1k that happen to be in the rink at any one night. There are many more hundred who for many reasons don’t happen to be there. We have easily increased our footprint in Cardiff by over 1k fans since moving in IAW.

I didn't go back to the wnir after the boycott. I saw a couple of games at the bbt after Bob Phillips had gone, but to be honest I couldn't be bothered with the terrible sightlines and terrible hockey. I suspect that a lot of other former fans felt similarly. These days in have to pick and choose games because for a family of four it starts getting prohibitively expensive, assuming we can actually get tickets together. A bigger arena means a better chance of getting seats and potentially lower ticket prices. Like it or not the size of IAW makes it difficult to attract new fans.