Todd Kelman - 4000 and counting podcast

Ocko

Well-Known Member
Thread starter #1
Just stumbled across this. Definitely worth a listen; Episode 137.

Spotify Link

Language is colourful at times so if you’re a bit up tight about that it’s not for you. Talks about his strategies for his success with Devils and Giants and a bit behind the scenes info of the EIHL. Nothing groundbreaking but just an insight. Also talks about the Myers decision, confirms salary cap of £12,500 a week and floor of £8,000.

Interesting point he raised, he would take a bigger rink and pay rent rather than have 3k capacity and no rent. Said he would take the Giants ice deal and the rink they have over our deal. It still costs £3k per game for us, cost in Belfast is £8k per game. Even at £10 a ticket that it only makes us 500 fans better off if it’s a £5k difference. I guess the only rent we save is the standard cost of ice rental which is £150 per hour if you want to rent the ice. Maybe not worth as much as we thought.
 

Wannabe2

Well-Known Member
#4
You wouldn’t get a new Arena in Cardiff for 8k as in Belfast which is subsidised to the hilt for peace and harmony in the city, and which was priced at that 10 whatever years ago, add to that the extra staff in stewarding etc, and then you can only play when your allowed to play, plus who pays for the ice plant etc. There’s a reason Sheffield Nottingham pay 12`-15k per game, and then if you get 4-5k people in it’s not too clever. You never know what you got until you ain’t got it anymore.
 

Ocko

Well-Known Member
Thread starter #5
You wouldn’t get a new Arena in Cardiff for 8k as in Belfast which is subsidised to the hilt for peace and harmony in the city, and which was priced at that 10 whatever years ago, add to that the extra staff in stewarding etc, and then you can only play when your allowed to play, plus who pays for the ice plant etc. There’s a reason Sheffield Nottingham pay 12`-15k per game, and then if you get 4-5k people in it’s not too clever. You never know what you got until you ain’t got it anymore.
Worst case scenario for £15k per game rent, would mean we would only need 936 extra fans to cover that cost based on our cheapest ticket of £16. That’s not even taking into consideration the fact it already costs £3k per game in IAW and the extra income a thousand fans would bring in once through the door. I’m sure a thousand extra people is pretty doable for Todd. £15k per game isn’t actually that much when you consider how little amount of fans that takes recoup.

When we are selling out a televised challenge cup group game, against Manchester, in October, a week before the game; it’s probably a sign we are outgrowing our current surroundings.
 

Hedd Wyn John

Well-Known Member
#6
I struggle to see the Devils pulling in much more than 4k crowds, IAW is a bit small but I can't see Devils being able to sustain a huge arena like the new 15k one planned for Cardiff. If there was a way to convert the IAW to have an extra 1000 seats & there was the money to do it (which indoubt there is) that would be the best option for the future.
 

Ocko

Well-Known Member
Thread starter #7
I struggle to see the Devils pulling in much more than 4k crowds, IAW is a bit small but I can't see Devils being able to sustain a huge arena like the new 15k one planned for Cardiff. If there was a way to convert the IAW to have an extra 1000 seats & there was the money to do it (which indoubt there is) that would be the best option for the future.
The new arena of 15k includes seating where the ice would be. The likely size for hockey would be around 10k, like Sheffield.
 

Wannabe2

Well-Known Member
#8
Worst case scenario for £15k per game rent, would mean we would only need 936 extra fans to cover that cost based on our cheapest ticket of £16. That’s not even taking into consideration the fact it already costs £3k per game in IAW and the extra income a thousand fans would bring in once through the door. I’m sure a thousand extra people is pretty doable for Todd. £15k per game isn’t actually that much when you consider how little amount of fans that takes recoup.

When we are selling out a televised challenge cup group game, against Manchester, in October, a week before the game; it’s probably a sign we are outgrowing our current surroundings.
Extra security told when you can and can’t play told when you can train and when you can’t train, rent for offices as you won’t get them there, where’s the plant coming from. More to this than meets the eye.
 

Mazzoak

Well-Known Member
#10
Couple of questions

Whats the 3k cost per game at the IAW for if the ice rent is only £150 ?

The new Arena will be pre booked months if not yrs in advance on weekends, so how you schedule hockey ?

There‘s no ice plant or facilities in the planning applications, why would they add ?

Tickets for concerts sell at over £50 ea, at 15k that’s £750,000 in sales, why would they rent it at £15k to the Devils ?
 
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Earnie

Well-Known Member
#11
There is more chance of a new build 6000 seater ice rink than being part of the Council new Arena.
By new build I mean Calgary new build- not Council.
 

Ocko

Well-Known Member
Thread starter #13
Couple of questions

Whats the 3k cost per game at the IAW for if the ice rent is only £150 ?

The new Arena will be pre booked months if not yrs in advance on weekends, so how you schedule hockey ?

There‘s no ice plant or facilities in the planning applications, why would they add ?

Tickets for concerts sell at over £50 ea, at 15k that’s £750,000 in sales, why would they rent it at £15k to the Devils ?
The free rental deal covers the use of the ice and that’s it, which is £180 per hour in IAW. The rest, security, staff costs, medical cover is what makes up the £3K. They also pay for office costs.

They would probably schedule hockey the same way the 4 other teams in the league who play in arenas do.

They would add an ice pad probably on the back of negotiations with the club if they were willing or club could fund it. Maybe like the other teams did.

Why would they rent it to the Devils for £15k? Probably the same reason the other teams have ice deals in their respective arenas.

You’re asking questions that no one on the inferno would ever actually know, it’s the stuff that gets negotiated quite far down the line.

Just to add to the outgrowing IAW argument, we’ve just pretty much sold out the Steelers game, in 3 weeks time.
 
#15
Having been responsible for the economic assessment that led to the free ice for the Devils I wonder whether that will be revisited as it was originally based on a lower ice rink capacity
 

Mazzoak

Well-Known Member
#17
The free rental deal covers the use of the ice and that’s it, which is £180 per hour in IAW. The rest, security, staff costs, medical cover is what makes up the £3K. They also pay for office costs.

They would probably schedule hockey the same way the 4 other teams in the league who play in arenas do.
Other teams play out of Ice Rinks that can convert to Arena’s. Cardiff‘s new Arena would be different in that respect. The main usage of other clubs is as ice arena’s same way the IAW is meant to be.

They would add an ice pad probably on the back of negotiations with the club if they were willing or club could fund it. Maybe like the other teams did.

Why would they rent it to the Devils for £15k? Probably the same reason the other teams have ice deals in their respective arenas.
Other teams play in Ice Arena’s.

I could envisage a deal similar to Wembley back in the day. The only problem is you’d have to compete with existing facilities, that means pricing lower. That’s not attractive to Cardiff.
Where did your £15k come from. If you look at a concert, for instance Adele. Her cheapest tickets are £70 ish, with prices going up in price point to £400 max. So total sales at Cardiff 15,000 seat Arena you’d be looking around £1.2 to £1.5 million. The operators would need at least 50% of that in rent, running costs etc with agreements then on Merchandise sales, food & drink, parking etc etc.

You’re asking questions that no one on the inferno would ever actually know, it’s the stuff that gets negotiated quite far down the line.
I’m in the industry, I’m not saying it couldn’t happen, if the Devils can demonstrate a reasonable forecast of sales that would provide enough revenue to cover the costs. That’s where you’re presumed deal falls foul, I’m sure Todd will ask and I’m pretty sure the reply. There not likely to rent to the Devils at £15k, £650k maybe.....

Just to add to the outgrowing IAW argument, we’ve just pretty much sold out the Steelers game, in 3 weeks time.
The IAW was always too small for Cardiff, it was meant to. Todd came into the picture as a spanner, well and truly, the IAW was always deemed as a building that could easily be repurposed when the Devils died out under the previous owner.
 

Wannabe2

Well-Known Member
#18
The building was only built to get the housing contract, no one gave a shit if it succeeded or if it fell flat on its face, the only people who gave a rats arse was the fans. Fortunately these guys weren’t going to give up without a fight and gave their all to the very end, which resulted in IAW, is it perfect no way, is it the best home we have ever had bloody too true it is, our owners took us over with this home on its way, this home not a 5-8000 seater no, this home and this home has kept us alive never forget that guys, we are still here because of this home otherwise we would just be a statistic like Wasps, Capitals, Stingrays, Bees, Eagles, etc etc you never knew what you had until you lose it.
 

Mazzoak

Well-Known Member
#19
Reminds me of the Baker business example, short version.

Basically a guy bakes 10 loaves on Monday, sells out. On Tuesday he bakes 15 loaves and sells out. Everyone loves the bread. So on Wednesday he goes to the bank, gets loan, buys more ingredients and equipment. Thursday he bakes 100 loaves, sells 15. On Friday he’s outta business......

Moral of the story just because your business is growing you need to know how far that can grow & how much you can safely invest in building that business. The baker didn’t realise his market share would only every be 15 a day.

Im pretty sure the Cardiff Devils owners unlike previous owners are happy to stay with the 15 loaves......
 

Earnie

Well-Known Member
#20
To a person of reasonable intelligemce , if it was meant to be too small for ice hockey it is reasonable to conclude it would also be too small to be repurposed.You are in the industry yet produce a very odd last paragraph!
 
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