Feedback to Greenbank

Wannabe2

Well-Known Member
#81
Greenbank won a £350 million pounds contract, to build the housing, hotel etc, whoever won the contract had to build a replacement Ice Arena at their own cost, that was the deal. Now no one really wanted to build a ice rink, especially as their main tenants were to have rent free ice time, but if they wanted the profitable build, they had to take the cost of the Arena on the chin, that turned out to be £17 Million . If they could have done away with building the Arena they would have jumped at it, as it was never going to be a viable exercise. So now it's built and they have to a certain extent honoured there part, I think they are reluctant to spend anymore on what they see as a dead duck, now I may be wrong on their attitude but that's my take on it.
 
#82
Greenbank won a £350 million pounds contract, to build the housing, hotel etc, whoever won the contract had to build a replacement Ice Arena at their own cost, that was the deal. Now no one really wanted to build a ice rink, especially as their main tenants were to have rent free ice time, but if they wanted the profitable build, they had to take the cost of the Arena on the chin, that turned out to be £17 Million . If they could have done away with building the Arena they would have jumped at it, as it was never going to be a viable exercise. So now it's built and they have to a certain extent honoured there part, I think they are reluctant to spend anymore on what they see as a dead duck, now I may be wrong on their attitude but that's my take on it.
You are absolutely right in most of your post, my point is that to have won a contract some conditions would have needed to be met. Financial stability being one. The council pulled out of awarding Planer Ice due to fear of funding. Greenbank had to holt works for a period of the build, due to lack of funds.


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Chris

Administrator
#83
But that was because they simply hadn't sold enough houses to have the money there to keep building the arena? If it's anything like other schemes, the one in Cardiff was set up as it's own company and the £17million to build the arena wasn't just sitting there, funds had to be raised by selling houses on an ajoining plot of land.

I don't really understand where this is going, Greenbank built the arena, they currently operate it. It was built on a budget and whilst the arena is great and a major upgrade on anything we've had before, it's not quite as good as some were hoping for.

Presumably Greenbank have asked for this fan feedback to try and gauge what the issues are and what they can improve for the absolute minimum spend to reduce the number of complaints that they're getting?
 

Have Hope#35

Well-Known Member
#84
I've copied this from Wiki.

Cardiff Council had named the operator Planet Ice as the company they had chosen to build a new ice rink to replace the Cardiff Arena, which is a temporary structure in the Cardiff International Sports Village. Work was due to begin in early 2011, subject to planning, with the ice arena to be completed by February 2012. Planet Ice would have run the rink as well as design and build it.[1]

However, by July 2011, Cardiff Council said in statement "We were unable to find the comfort that we required from them to show the ice rink would now be progressed. As a result it is being recommended that the executive cancels the current tender. Instead it is proposed to deliver a new ice arena, as a priority, within a new waterfront tender which would go out this summer."[2] The contract to build the arena was eventually won by the Wigan-based developers, Greenbank Partnerships. The cost of the arena is approximately £16 – £17 million and will form part of a larger £250M development, which will include a 32-storey indoor ski slope which will contain a hotel and apartments, and viewing platform. The development will also contain cafes, shops, office space, apartments and townhouses.[3]


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Wasn't this more to do with the agreement for the land? I suppose it would still be considered a Tender but you first have to find a Developer who wants to put together a working scheme! The council also had to feel confident that a suitable Ice Arena would be provided. It's as good as we've ever had, just needs a bit more focus and attention!
 
#85
But that was because they simply hadn't sold enough houses to have the money there to keep building the arena? If it's anything like other schemes, the one in Cardiff was set up as it's own company and the £17million to build the arena wasn't just sitting there, funds had to be raised by selling houses on an ajoining plot of land.

I don't really understand where this is going, Greenbank built the arena, they currently operate it. It was built on a budget and whilst the arena is great and a major upgrade on anything we've had before, it's not quite as good as some were hoping for.

Presumably Greenbank have asked for this fan feedback to try and gauge what the issues are and what they can improve for the absolute minimum spend to reduce the number of complaints that they're getting?
I guess my point being is the lack of due diligence. The whole process of awarding the contract was in part meant to include the sustainability of the IAW's future. I agree today we have an improved facility to the BBT, but what happens if tomorrow the bills are not paid, who will pay them or will it simply close.


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Johnnybravo1927

Well-Known Member
#86
Slightly off topic but why would steve King and the rest want to buy IAW. For arguments sake it would cost them £17 million pounds and for what? The devils pay no rent, its not a good business so he would get some profit on food and drink and not have to pay rent on the devils office but its nowhere near a £17million deal. I have no doubts they would certainly improve the place and improve profit but it would never recoup the outlay.
 

Kal

Active Member
#87
I think eventually, probably a few years from now, Greenbank will just want rid of it specially if its operating at a loss. Perfect time for a cut price deal, hopefully the place will still be salvageable then.
 

Have Hope#35

Well-Known Member
#88
Slightly off topic but why would steve King and the rest want to buy IAW. For arguments sake it would cost them £17 million pounds and for what? The devils pay no rent, its not a good business so he would get some profit on food and drink and not have to pay rent on the devils office but its nowhere near a £17million deal. I have no doubts they would certainly improve the place and improve profit but it would never recoup the outlay.
Pretty sure that when the Owners were looking to purchase the rink their offer was about £10mil less than the number you've referenced... If they've left their offer on the table then I've no doubt that Greenbank will come calling again some time in the future! A passionate and business savy owner could certainly turn that place around.
 

Finny

Well-Known Member
#89
I guess my point being is the lack of due diligence. The whole process of awarding the contract was in part meant to include the sustainability of the IAW's future. I agree today we have an improved facility to the BBT, but what happens if tomorrow the bills are not paid, who will pay them or will it simply close.


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If Greenbank hadn't built it nobody else would have. Greenbank were the only company to tender for it.
Due diligence would have been done. If you research them you'll find no history of financial issues.
 

august04

Well-Known Member
#90
What's done is done, the circumstances around the build aren't going to change now. We've got a fantastic facility which we all know needs more being spent on it to get close to finishing it off. It would be nice to know that money will be spent to improve it or at least maintain the building properly, as I've seen two ice facilities in Cardiff go to rack and ruin through lack of maintenance already and I hope that doesn't happen with IAW. What I want to know is what updates were given at the fan council meeting, if any? That should be commented on, given we were asked to complete feedback forms for Greenbank. The season is upon us. Is this new lighting that we were told was replacing the failing lights, installed yet? Etc etc etc. If no improvements or changes, and there's no intention to do anything, then let the public know. At least then, we know where we are and can stop dreaming of a completed or improved facility.
 
#91
I agree what is done is done in part, my issue is this should not have been a make do facility on the cheap. The Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004 which requires a Council to prepare a Local Development Plan. The Cardiff Local Development Plan 2006-26 is very clear that pre release of each development has to satisfy certain legal, sustainability, social and environmental issues and laws before the development can begin.

Part of the plan includes "Develop world-class leisure, cultural and sporting facilities – that reflect the wants of citizens and visitors".

"The Bay Business Area (BBA) is the focus for government, tourism and leisure development; with the Senedd, the Wales Millennium Centre and other landmark buildings redefining the architectural quality and attractiveness of the waterfront and its environs. Future development should continue to enhance the waterfront as an attractive and diverse mixed-use location, whilst complementing and supporting the CBA as the economic driver for the city region. The Cardiff Bay Barrage has created a 200 hectare freshwater lake and 13km of waterfront providing opportunities for further tourism and water based recreation as well as attracting significant inward investment in an attractive waterfront location".

"New and improved leisure, recreation and tourist facilities are important for the future development of Cardiff. These uses are major employers in the city centre and generate significant benefits to the local economy. By improving the quality and range of sporting, recreation and leisure facilities, the area is made a more attractive place in which to live, work and visit, thereby helping to attract inward investment and regeneration. These attractions are also important for city marketing and the branding of Cardiff as a major cultural, sporting and leisure destination. Furthermore, it is recognised that these facilities are an important factor in improving the well-being and quality of life of our local communities".

Does anything in the IAW, Greenbank or its surrounding proposed development of the adjacent land currently or in the future met any of the LDP.

So who is going to spend the money to improve the IAW and continue the development of the site ?


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pjj365

Well-Known Member
#93
Hmm
Assume at some point the Council will do something about what might be a breach of covenant (who knows)

Couple this with a failing business which can not meet its banking covenants and maybe the IAW will become an attractive purchase

Another business for £1 anyone

Means taking on debts and obligations as well but ................
 

kingmo19.1

Well-Known Member
#96
I think a few people have let their expectations run wild with the IAW. Just a reminder, but the original budged wasn't £50million. It's not perfect (as some would expect), but it's the BEST we've ever had.

My lad plays for the Junior Devils and we visit a load of rinks up and down the country, some of which are complete and utter dumps. Be thankful for what you have! I believe the alternatives would have been remain in the BBT / None.
 
#97
I believe the alternatives would have been remain in the BBT / None.
The past cannot be re-written, but the Council do have an obligation to honour the LDP. The council have appointed a developer who should have passed on paper all the necessary tests to ensure the facility has a future. The EIHL is gaining strength within the UK, the Devils have decent owners and are achieving success both on the ice and within the fan base. The very least Greenbank should be strongly reminded of their obligations, assuming of course the council and Greenbank want the IAW to remain in its current form.


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#98
I think a few people have let their expectations run wild with the IAW. Just a reminder, but the original budged wasn't £50million. It's not perfect (as some would expect), but it's the BEST we've ever had.

My lad plays for the Junior Devils and we visit a load of rinks up and down the country, some of which are complete and utter dumps. Be thankful for what you have! I believe the alternatives would have been remain in the BBT / None.
We are a Capital City and should be able to realistically expect to have a Capital facility.
The rink is certainly the best we've ever had but there are a few issues that most of us are aware of, we have a beautiful National stadium right in the centre of our City, an excellent cricket stadium, a 33,000 seater football stadium, a wonderful athletics stadium and a beautiful swimming facility. We seem to be the poor relations on the sports facilities order of merit.
Granted the rink is good but all the oddities like scoreboard missing corners, poor catering facilities and very plain and disappointing internal decor.
This city has a wonderful reputation for hosting big sporting events in first class facilities and for the sake of a little bit more financial input and thinking outside the box we could have a really wonderful faciilty like our football/rugby/cricket/swimming neighbours..like I said we're a Capital city.
 

Wannabe2

Well-Known Member
#99
Edinburgh is a Capital City and their rink sucks, London is the Capital City of the World and they have jack all, so please don't think we are entitled to the Rolls Royce of Rinks because when reality kicks in, we are big time fortunate to have what we have. Our wonderful Capital City when they closed the Empire Pool left our swimmers with Zilch, so please don't go down that road. Our wonderful Capital City Council would have been quite happy to close the doors on ice facilities in Cardiff, as long as John Lewis were coming that was all that mattered, and if the Devils died then diddly squat, who gave a toss. Don't ever underestimate our gaff, it's the best we have ever had.
 

kingmo19.1

Well-Known Member
Edinburgh is a Capital City and their rink sucks, London is the Capital City of the World and they have jack all, so please don't think we are entitled to the Rolls Royce of Rinks because when reality kicks in, we are big time fortunate to have what we have. Our wonderful Capital City when they closed the Empire Pool left our swimmers with Zilch, so please don't go down that road. Our wonderful Capital City Council would have been quite happy to close the doors on ice facilities in Cardiff, as long as John Lewis were coming that was all that mattered, and if the Devils died then diddly squat, who gave a toss. Don't ever underestimate our gaff, it's the best we have ever had.
Spot on.
 
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